Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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56. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will provide details of the forthcoming regulation of lobbying (amendment) Bill; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11798/22]

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I would like to hear from the Minister in regard to the forthcoming regulation of lobbying (amendment) Bill. This is an area in which the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, the Minister and I have an interest and an issue that regularly comes up in the media and in the public domain. I would be interested in hearing an update on the Bill.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On 15 February, the Government approved the general scheme of the regulation of lobbying (amendment) Bill 2022. The general scheme has been published and referred to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach for pre-legislative scrutiny. I have instructed my officials to give the committee whatever support it requires in terms of briefing or clarification in respect of any of the heads of the Bill and I have asked that this issue be prioritised, if at all possible, given the key role that regulation of lobbying legislation plays in supporting transparency and citizen participation. I acknowledge the very large workload facing the committee at this time.

In tandem with pre-legislative scrutiny, my officials will work closely with the Office of the Attorney General on the priority drafting of the Bill. The key features of the Bill include: an extension of the definition of lobbying to ensure that business representative bodies and coalitions of business interests, regardlessof the number of employees, are brought within the scope of the legislation; improvements in the functionality of the lobbying register for those who carry on lobbying activities and are required to make returns; a strengthening of the existing legislation and its enforcement, including the introduction of an anti-avoidance clause; and the implementation of a scheme of administrative and civil sanctions for contravening the cooling-off period provisions.

I anticipate that the Bill will be drafted and published in the coming months and that it will be enacted as soon as possible thereafter. I acknowledge the work of our colleague and former Minister, Deputy Howlin, in bringing forward the 2015 Act which was ground-breaking for its time and set the template for many European countries to bring in similar regimes, but it now requires updating. I acknowledge the work done by Deputy Farrell on this issue as well. Lobbying is part of a democratic process but it is important we know who is lobbying, who is being lobbied and the purpose of that lobbying. Reforming and modernising the system is the appropriate thing to do.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with the Minister that reform in this area is extremely important. My understanding in regard to the forthcoming Bill is that it does not make provision for an extension of the cooling off period to two years. Section 7 of the Bill which Deputy Doherty and I drafted amends section 22 of the principal Act and extends the cooling off period for designated public officials leaving public office from one to two years. This particular move from one to two years is recommended, including by the Standards in Public Office Commission, and by various experts who appeared before the finance committee. It is felt that one year is insufficient to mitigate the use of former networks that can be used to trade influence and that a two-year cooling off period would be far more effective. Can the Minister advise his rationale for not extending the cooling-off period?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is one of the issues we will have to debate and tease out over the course of pre-legislative scrutiny and on Second, Committee and Report Stages of the Bill across the House. It is a question of judgment. It is also a question of what is proportionate, balanced and fair. People do have a right to earn a living having worked previously at senior level in the Civil Service or as a public representative, but it is important that there is a cooling-off period. One of the issues we are seeking to address in the heads of Bill I have brought forward is the enforcement of any contravention of the existing legislation. We have brought forward a proposal in that regard. It is civil and administrative in nature, with a fine of up to €25,000 and a prohibition on lobbying for up to a two year period. We need to tease this out and to look at what other European countries and countries outside of the European Union are doing and discuss it in the course of the legislative process.

Mairead Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I agree that the enforcement of the contravention is key. That will, hopefully, stop people ignoring the timeline of one or two years depending on what is decided. While I agree with the Minister that people have to be able to earn a living afterwards, we need to be very clear that we are shutting the revolving door that is perceived out there between politics and big business. That is, unfortunately, an attitude people have towards politics. We cannot have a situation where former politicians or others are able to trade influence one year after they have left office. That is the purpose of the forthcoming Bill. The Minister has agreed that the existing Act needs to be updated. It is important to restore public confidence in public and political life.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge that change is needed. As Minister, the Deputy will not find me defending a situation where somebody can go from holding a senior position in government one day, exercising important responsibilities, to very shortly afterwards moving to a position where he or she is directly interacting with and lobbying the previous employer. That is not something that should be allowed or can happen. The issue that has been identified is the need to have an appropriate sanction in place and an appropriate penalty. That is the issue we have sought to address. We have looked at a range of jurisdictions. In my view, Ireland compares quite well in already having a statutory basis for a cooling-off period. Where it is lacking and there is a gap currently is in regard to the enforceability of that cooling off period. SIPO has called that out in the past. We have conducted an in-depth review. I will work with the Deputy to tease out with her the logic and rationale for the conclusions that we have reached and I will, of course, listen to her perspective and point of view in that regard.