Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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84. To ask the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment if he plans to have a higher rate of grant and higher threshold of cost for householders, together with a lower threshold of turnover for contractors, based on islands under the national home energy upgrade scheme and the retrofit scheme to ensure the challenges of island life relating to cost, scale and income opportunities are taken into account; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10467/22]

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister might remember a previous time he was a Minister and there was a higher rate of grants for retrofitting on the islands through the warmer homes grant and so on. Is the Minister going to go through the same process now? Will there be higher ceilings for the maximum expenditure and lower thresholds for island contractors who would not have turnover of €1 million? Those changes are required so we get work done on the island. Much of that work would be done by islanders, which would have a double effect. As the Minister knows, the islanders are very keen to reduce their carbon footprint. They are very creative in doing so.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Deputy is right and I remember the role he played in those grant schemes. We favoured the islands for a number of reasons. The islands are demonstrable. They are particular geographic areas so one can show and measure effects. The likes of Inis Mór and the Aran Islands have been progressive and have showed leadership in demonstrating how communities can come together. The islands were also favoured because of the issue of energy security. Shipping fossil fuels - gas, oil, coal or any other fossil fuel - to an island is inherently expensive and brings risks with it. We did provide those higher grants and they delivered. Some 300 home energy upgrades have been supported on the islands since 2014 under the community energy grant scheme. In the same time period, there have been 29 applications for the better energy homes scheme and 37 for the warmer homes scheme. It has worked.

I believe we have now moved to a different phase. The new grant levels of 50% and up to 80%, which we introduced two weeks ago, are the sort of grant levels that will make the case for themselves on the islands or onshore. That level of grant facility overcomes the cost impediments and the economic case is there.

The experience of the islands in the past built up abilities and skills. It also provided examples. That was what those initial higher grants were put in place to deliver and I believe they did so. I do not believe it appropriate to extend them. The new grant system we are introducing is sufficient and is the right measure.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I am very disappointed with that reply, which seems to fail to recognise that getting any goods or labour onto the islands is far more expensive than trying to do the equivalent on the mainland. For example, to bring cargo from the mainland, one has to pay a cargo fee and VAT on that cargo fee. Those are extra costs. Thereafter, one has to move the cargo from the harbour to wherever on the island it is going.

I ask the Minister to meet a delegation from Comhdháil Oileáin na hÉireann. It is anxious to outline to the Minister why his policy is not treating all the people of not only the island of Ireland but also the territorial islands in an equal way because of the difference in cost. As the Minister said, the islanders have been innovative in what they have been doing. There has been considerable success. Why not build on that success and make the islands micro models of carbon neutral societies? We could bring Irish people and others from across the world to the islands to show them how a carbon neutral society actually works.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I would be happy to meet the representatives of the organisation the Deputy mentioned to discuss this issue. If we do that, I would also like to broaden the discussion because I think there is a lot we can learn from the islands. As the Deputy mentioned, there are island-specific skills. Islanders have the ability to be innovative and flexible. They do a variety of tasks that often involve the community coming together. We want to protect and enhance that. We want to deploy some of those things on the mainland as well as maintaining their existence on the islands.

I do not want to give false hope when going into such a meeting. We are talking about grant levels of 50% and 80%. In fact, for the warmer homes scheme and other projects, the grant level is 100%, which means the full cost is covered. That will still apply to a lot of the housing on the islands. Anyone on an island who is in receipt of the fuel allowance, disability allowance, living alone allowance or any other allowance will be able to get that 100% grant.

I do not think it is necessary, to make the leap we need to make, to have a separate grants system for the islands. I agree with the Deputy, however, that islanders face particular circumstances, and I am keen to support them in whatever other ways I can.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Many people living on our islands are not in receipt of fuel allowance because they have incomes. This is something we have been working hard to address over the years. There are huge extra costs involved in living on an island.

There were three parts to my question. One concerns the need for a higher rate of grants and the second relates to the maximum cost allowed. It is more expensive to do things on islands than to do them on the mainland. Therefore, the ceilings in place of €50,000, €2,000 and so on should be higher on the islands. The third issue is the turnover of contractors. There is no way one will find an island-based contractor, whose main focus is energy work on that island, who has a turnover of €1 million per year. Will the Minister address the second and third parts of my question?

I welcome his agreement to meet with the organisation to which I referred. The people involved have sent a letter to him and I hope the meeting will happen in the next few weeks. As he knows, islanders probably are the greatest enthusiasts in the country for making their part of the world carbon neutral.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will look at the threshold for turnover. I do not want to have such a complex bureaucratic system that we create a separate issue. However, if the turnover is a difficulty, we will look at it.

There are a variety of issues when it comes to higher costs. Obviously, cargo ferry costs are one of the most significant. My Department, in a variety of ways, is keen to support, and is supporting, the islands, particularly in terms of management of those ferries and the contract arrangements around it.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is not a matter for the Minister's Department.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The Government supports it. Regarding grant levels, a key grant would be for something like a heat pump. In that instance, the grant will stay fixed but the overall building costs may change. It is appropriate for us to have a mechanism whereby there is a set level in order that people have certainty. We do not want to create a completely different and separate system for the islands, which might end up adding expense. I will come back to the Deputy and the islanders' organisation to see what can be done outside a separate grants system.