Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Ba mhaith liom aitheantas a thabhairt don Aire Stáit as a dhíograis agus a thiomantas maidir leis an scéim seo. Gabhaim buíochas freisin leis an Aire, an Teachta Darragh O'Brien, as a thiomantas. I welcome the Minister of State. It is our fourth time to discuss this Topical Issue. I will make five points and perhaps when I make my next contribution I will be able to elaborate on them.

The first point is that facilitators are needed on the ground in Donegal with immediate effect to disseminate information and to fill a communication gap that exists at present, which is very difficult for homeowners. They are trying to navigate their way through this torture. It is a torture, and it is continuing. That is important. Ms Ann Owens of the Mica Working Group has been very consistent on this appeal. Commitments were made last summer. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, mentioned the outreach from the Housing Agency that is in operation, but people need to see this happening and to see people on the ground with immediate effect.

Second, I was delighted to hear the comments of the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, regarding the retrofit scheme. We have talked about this off-campus as well. While I welcome the retrofit scheme being assimilated into the mica scheme, it is very important that we do not add another layer of bureaucracy to what is already a quagmire in some people's eyes, making it impossible to pedal their way through this scheme. If the retrofit scheme is going to be done in unison, let us work into it that it is not an extra agency or Department trying to seek different rules and criteria. This has to be part of the one scheme.

The third point I wish to raise is the homeowners who have paid the engineering fees. On the last occasion, I mentioned a mother and daughter in Donegal who have taken out a loan of €12,000 from the credit union. That is a lot of money. The mother is not earning and is on a pension while the daughter is a carer, so they do not have money to pay back this finance. Basically, that money has to be paid back as a matter of urgency.

The 17% holding back on the payment is too high. In fact, some people believe it is actually as high as 25%. It has to be reduced, and I know there are conversations to that effect taking place. It is important that this is addressed as a matter of priority.

The point of raising this matter tonight with regard to the Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland, SCSI, is that I believe the Department made an error in what it did over two weeks ago. It drew up the terms of reference in consultation with the SCSI but did not include the voice of the homeowners. That was a mistake. It has eroded confidence in a process that is already at a very vulnerable level. It has really got the homeowners' backs up that they were not part of that as well. I know this has been addressed in terms of trying to have a better stakeholder representation, but the danger here is, with the SCSI feeding into the Department on the terms of reference, whether that door is closed or ajar for the homeowners, who incidentally are meeting with the SCSI today. Can they still have their voice heard and be part of the terms of reference?

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an gceist seo a ardú. We have discussed this previously and I will try to address some, if not all, of the issues the Deputy raised and, perhaps in closing, the retrofit part of it specifically.

Again, I thank the Deputy for consistently raising this issue on behalf of his constituents. It is critical that we get it right for the communities that are affected by this. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien brought a memorandum to the Government on an enhanced defective concrete blocks scheme on 30 November 2021. It included an unprecedented suite of improvements to the current scheme which removed the financial barrier to entry to the scheme by simplifying and streamlining the application process, increased the grants available from 90% to 100% of allowable costs and the maximum grant level from €247,500 to €420,000, provided for a second grant in certain circumstances, introduced an independent appeals process and strengthened the certificate of remediation available to homeowners.

The Government approved the enhanced scheme, which is estimated to come in at approximately €2.2 billion. The revised grant calculation methodology will be based on the size of the existing home using a cost per sq. m. Up-to-date construction costs are an important consideration in this regard. Accordingly, the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland has agreed to produce a report on up-to-date construction costs for the type of remediation works carried out under the scheme on a variety of home types under the defective concrete blocks scheme. The SCSI will be independent in its work but in the interest of fairness, it has engaged with the Department on the matter and has agreed to hear a submission from homeowners on construction costs in the north west. This relates to the final point the Deputy made. The specific grant rates that will be implemented will be set by the Department after the SCSI provides its independent advice. Construction costs in the SCSI report will be reviewed annually to reflect construction cost changes. They are changing rapidly as we are all aware.

In relation to implementation of the enhanced scheme, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, recently wrote to the PRO of the Mica Action Group on these matters updating him on work undertaken to date in regard to implementation of the enhanced scheme. It is important that homeowners have the opportunity to engage on implementation of the scheme. In this regard, John O'Connor, former chief executive officer of the Housing Agency, was recently appointed to act as liaison between homeowners and the Department and its expert group on implementation of the enhanced scheme.

The Minister fully understands the level of anxiety and apprehension around the scheme given the scale involved and homeowners' experiences of the devastation caused by defective concrete blocks. I reiterate, on behalf of the Minister, his commitment to urgently build a grant scheme which is fit for purpose with grant rates based on the independent work of the SCSI that covers the real costs involved. I will provide more information in my next response.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. The response is consistent with the information the Minister has been sending to me. I will focus on several elements. The word "independence" was used a number of times in the reply. This independence has been somewhat tarnished by what has happened in the past two weeks. It is very important that whatever submission the homeowners make is not just seen as a listening exercise but also that they have something to contribute. It has to be done in a proactive way.

Since 2014, when the then Minister of State, Paudie Coffey, and I sat in a room with officials from the Department with responsibility for the environment, there have been many false dawns and timeframes. Many months have been mentioned. We have been told that this will be done and that will be done in the next few weeks. We are all coming out of lockdown. People who are fortunate enough to have homes have spent two years in them. Mica homeowners have spent two years in houses that are falling down. They need a timeframe that is honest and upfront. The Minister has said in response to me this will be completed at the end of the spring and the legislation will go through. The Attorney General and his team are working very hard on this. They are making it a priority. They are meeting twice a week. It is very important that we stick to whatever timeframe we give and it does not drag on. According to the old Gaelic calendar spring starts in Ireland on 1 February. It is argued that in the northern hemisphere spring starts on 1 March. We need to be very careful about throwing out timelines that will not be met. We have to help people navigate their way through this. The most important thing that needs to happen today is that people who are owed money for engineering costs need to be repaid. We need facilitators on the ground as a matter of priority.

Malcolm Noonan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Green Party)
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I take on board the points made by Deputy McHugh on independence and on taking on board the submissions in a proactive way. We will take on board the specific point on owners who have paid engineering costs. We are moving towards a full and better resolution.

Deputy McHugh specifically asked about retrofit. It is important to clarify a number of aspects of the parameters of the scheme. Foundations are being considered as part of the National Standards Authority of Ireland's review of the IS 465 standard. Any future change to this will be integrated into the scheme. The scheme is based on legal advice on a like-for-like remediation grant. Remediation options will adhere to building regulations.

In respect of home upgrades, I can confirm that homeowners will be eligible for the newly revised SEAI retrofit grants on the same terms and conditions as other homeowners. This was clarified earlier by the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smith. Significant work is under way to make immediate improvements to the current scheme in parallel with legislating for and implementing the enhanced scheme. Amending regulations are being finalised to provide for immediate recoupment to homeowners of engineers' fees and the introduction of allowable costs for essential work for immediate repairs to the value of €5,000. There is also an increase in the value of stage payments that can be drawn before the final grant payment.

An expert group has been established to advise the Minister on technical issues for purposes required in the legislation. These include, for example, damage threshold for entry into the scheme, an independent appeals process, second grant conditions, certificates of remediation, engagement with and resourcing of local authorities to continue the work of the scheme and the role of the Housing Agency in an enhanced scheme and transition.

It is important that people accessing grants under the scheme are able to avail of the national retrofit scheme in a way that delivers a seamless customer experience. Work is already under way between the Department and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to provide a streamlined mechanism. It is our intention this will be deployed over the coming months.