Dáil debates

Thursday, 27 January 2022

Ceisteanna ar Sonraíodh Uain Dóibh - Priority Questions

Defence Forces

10:30 am

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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92. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the details of the progress of the Commission on the Defence Forces to date; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3890/22]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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93. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence when the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces will be published; the process that he will put in place to implement the report; if the Defence Forces representative associations will be directly involved in the implementation of the report; if he intends to set out a timeframe for the implementation of the report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3563/22]

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The report of the Commission on the Defence Forces was due to be published by now. Has the Minister seen a final draft of the report and can he give us a timeline for when it will be published?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 92 and 93 together.

The programme for Government committed to the establishment of an independent commission to undertake a comprehensive review of the Defence Forces. The independent Commission on the Defence Forces was established by the Government in December 2020 and its terms of reference provide for it to examine and make recommendations regarding the structures and size of the Defence Forces, defence capabilities, HR polices and strategies, the Reserve Defence Force, governance and high level command and control in the Defence Forces, and pay structures.

The commission has undertaken a broad consultative process and has also met with a wide stakeholder groups, including the Defence Forces representative associations, commissioned and enlisted members of the Defence Forces, senior officials and personnel from my Department and the Defence Forces as well as other groups. Members of the commission also conducted site visits to military locations across the country, meeting nearly 1,000 military personnel. In addition, the commission held two webinars, one in conjunction with the Royal Irish Academy and another in conjunction with the Institute of International and European Affairs.

The commission is finalising its work with a view to completing its report as soon as possible. At that point, the report will be fully considered. Given the significant issues provided for in the commission's terms of reference, there will be a requirement to consult ministerial colleagues on any matters that fall within their remit and to consider the legal and governance implications of the commission's recommendations, where required. I will also be seeking the views of my Department and the Defence Forces. When these deliberations are completed, I intend to revert to the Government with a proposed plan of action.

I would like to assure the Deputies that the Defence Forces representative associations will be consulted on all matters that fall within the scope of representation relating to the implementation of any approved plan. As the Deputies will appreciate, in advance of the publication of the report and the subsequent consideration of its recommendations, it would be inappropriate for me to engage in speculation regarding any of the commission's potential recommendations or the response to those recommendations.

We will need to have a very comprehensive debate in this House on the report of the commission. I have not yet seen a final draft of the report. I have met with the chair to get an update in terms of where the commission's work is at, and so I have a reasonable idea as to where it is going in terms of recommendations and approach, but I await the final draft of the report. I hope that in the next couple of weeks this process will conclude. I will need to bring the report to the Government, but I would like to have a significant amount of time set aside in this House and in the Seanad to debate the contents of the commission's report. This is potentially a watershed moment in the context of the future of defence policy in Ireland, how the Defence Forces are resourced and structured and what we ask of them in the context of new and developing threats.

I want to try to build all-party consensus, if possible, on how we respond to this report and the resources that will be required to respond to it comprehensively, which I believe may well be significant. In my view, this is arguably the most important strategic report for defence and the Defence Forces that we have seen in a very long time.

We need to give it the time and attention it deserves when it is published which, as I said, it will be in February. I suspect this will happen in the first half of that month.

10:40 am

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The newly appointed Chief of Staff has a very difficult task at hand. We have an organisation that is on its knees. There is a lot of hope around this commission and its final report. The Minister's comments last night showed poor judgment. They completely undermined the Chief of Staff and the difficult role and task he has at hand. It showed extremely poor judgment on the Minister's behalf.

The final report has been long anticipated. There have been a number of leaks and a number of comments attributed to different people in senior positions. I am not sure whether it is an attempt to undermine the report or an attempt to be helpful by ensuring the final report adheres to the terms of reference. Some of the commentary around it has suggested it is a fudge and a missed opportunity. Does the Minister believe the report is in line with the terms of reference? Will it do everything that is hoped by giving clarity and addressing the serious failings within the Defence Forces?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I welcome the statement made a moment ago by the Minister. It was important and timely. The Minister is right to underscore the report of the commission as a watershed. It is a pivotal moment. For many years, morale in the Defence Forces has been poor. Members of the Defence Forces feel badly done by, under-resourced, badly paid and in receipt of poor accommodation. A lot of hope is now vested in this process and it must meet those aspirations and expectations. I welcome the Minister setting out what he wants to do with it.

On the timeline for the report, it was to be published in December and then in January. I am concerned about the timeline now being referenced by the Minister to the effect that it will be some time before the final report is available to him, at which point he will have intergovernmental discussions about it. When will we have the opportunity to see what the future of Defence Forces will look like and, more importantly, when will Defence Forces personnel see that?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank both Deputies. The expectation was that this piece of work would have concluded by the end of last year but this is not a straightforward piece of work. There are quite a lot of people on the commission who bring extraordinary expertise and experience and are anxious to get this right. This is essentially a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reset and recalibrate. In some ways, it will mark a new direction for the Defence Forces. I have been clear to the chair of the commission that I want the right outcome rather than being overly demanding in setting deadlines or anything like that. The report is not going to be delayed for long. I hope it is being finalised as we speak. As I said, I expect to be bringing the report to the Cabinet for noting in the first half of February. I hope we will also be debating the commission report in February. However, I also want to hold extensive consultations with the Defence Forces and their representative bodies in the context of this report once it has been published. I will be making clear to the Cabinet that we cannot simply adopt an implementation plan for the commission's report immediately. It will take a significant amount of consultation and work. Significant resource allocation may well be required. I will need to work with my colleagues and the Government to do that, and that will take some time. As part of that consultation, I would certainly like this House to be central in the context of the debate and the response to it. We are not going to have to wait much longer. The report is a couple of weeks away at most.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There is a lot of expectation and hope about what may come from the final report, which we all eagerly await. I hope that timeline can be adhered to. There is also concern over what may come about in terms of proposed reductions in the size of the Army, for example. There are concerns in that regard. The Minister's Cabinet colleague, Deputy Eamon Ryan, made comments yesterday about the potential closure of Cathal Brugha Barracks and a feasibility study, of which he already knows the outcome, that will see the closure of the barracks and the development of up to 1,000 residential units in their place. That has sent out a negative message to the Defence Forces, which are on their knees and concerned about their future and viability at a time we are talking about the closure of barracks. Does the Minister think the timing of that intervention by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, was helpful? What kind of message did it send to the Defence Forces? Was it appropriate for the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to make those comments and announce a feasibility study before the final report has been produced, discussed and debated?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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A report of the magnitude of the one the commission is doing will, of course, attract commentary. People will express concern and ambitions that they want accommodated in the commission's report. There has been some such commentary and that is to be expected. I ask people to be patient and wait for the content of the report. My understanding is that this will be a substantial report with a lot of recommendations, some of which may relate to fundamental change. Let us wait for the report and assess it. My role will be to build as much as consensus as possible about the way forward as a result of the report. It will create a new direction and not only for the length of one Government term but for a much longer period of time. It is important to get it right.

The comments that were made yesterday about Cathal Brugha Barracks were in the context of the Housing for All update report, which was launched and commented on yesterday. What I have agreed to in the Department of Defence is a feasibility study to look at Cathal Brugha Barracks in the context of housing demand. However, there is no predetermined outcome of that feasibility study. Let me be clear about that.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should talk to his Cabinet colleague.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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This is an issue on which the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has firm views. My job as Minister for Defence is, of course, to look after the interests of the Defence Forces. We are looking at various options but I can assure the House there is no predetermined outcome.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I will focus on the commission report. I think the Minister will agree that some of the commentary about it is unhelpful. Somebody has seen the report. There have been suggestions that a draft of the report was submitted to the Minister's Department. Commentary emerged that the draft is in part vague and in part contradictory. We should not be having commentary on a report that has not been published. It is important for the Minister to marshal and control the information before the report is finalised and published.

I welcome what the Minister has said about the implementation strategy and that the report is not going to be rushed but will be thought about. A pivotal part of the implementation strategy will be engagement with the representatives of Defence Forces personnel, who understand first-hand exactly what needs to be done. Their understanding, commentary and in-depth knowledge of what needs to be done will be critical in the implementation of the recommendations of the report.

I ask the Minister to respond on those two points - the need to marshal the information to ensure these things are not shot at before the report even becomes a public document, and the need for a clearly discussed implementation plan that is not presented to the Defence Forces representative bodies but negotiated with them in terms of how this transformational document is to be implemented over many years to come.

10:50 am

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We are working hard to make sure that as this document gets finalised, is protected in terms of its content. As I said, I have not seen any final draft. I had a meeting with the chair, as one would expect, to get an update report in terms of where things are and the direction of travel and so on. I understand various different amendments were still being considered this week in terms of the report being finalised and we must respect that process.

It is not a surprise on something of this scale that there would be commentary and people outlining perspectives and so on. That is what we have seen. People will not have to wait much longer to get the detail of this report, however. We will do what we can to try to protect the integrity of that process.

In terms of the implementation strategy, which I do not want to say too much about because I need to bring a proposal to the Government and get it accepted, certainly I will not be in a position to simply accept the commission's report's recommendations and start implementing them on day one. There may well be some early actions that we take on the back of that report, of course, but because this is such a substantial report, we will need to take some time and, as the Deputy said, talk to and work with representative organisations but also with other colleagues in government and with the Taoiseach's office to ensure we can actually put an implementation plan and timeline around that in place, which I can then bring back to the Government for approval. I certainly believe that getting the input of all parties in this House as well as representative groups and other stakeholders will be helpful in this process. That is certainly what I intend to do.