Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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85. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the terms of reference for the announced independent review following a radio documentary (details supplied); the person or body that will be responsible for establishing the review body; the membership qualifications or criteria for same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [46794/21]

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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86. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to a radio programme (details supplied); and the steps he is taking arising from the programme to tackle misogyny and violence within the Defence Forces. [47192/21]

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to discuss with the Minister the terms of reference announced regarding the independent review following the radio documentary "Women of Honour" by Katie Hannon, which was broadcast on 11 September. What person or body will be responsible for establishing the review and what are the membership qualifications or criteria for same? I understand there has been significant movement in the 19 days since the documentary was broadcast.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 85 and 86 together.

I wish to reassure the House that this issue is a big priority for me. The meetings I had this week with the Women of Honour group and with serving women from the Defence Forces were deeply impactful, not only on me but on my Secretary General and indeed the incoming Chief of Staff. This is an issue we are going to get a handle on. We are going to put a process in place that will deliver real change. I say that very directly to the House. Anybody who chooses to enter the Defence Forces and wants to develop a career there must be guaranteed they will be treated with respect, they will be safe, they will not be discriminated against and they certainly will not be sexually abused or harassed. Unfortunately, there are far too many stories in this space that are not historic but current and they must result in a fundamental change for some people, who are a minority in the Defence Forces, with respect to their approach to diversity. We are going to bring about that change. We are going set in train a process to deliver that by means of an independent review and a recommendation I will bring to the Government.

I listened with concern to the women who recounted their experiences on the "Women of Honour" programme on RTÉ on 11 September. Earlier this week I met with participants from the Women of Honour group and with a group of serving female members of the Defence Forces. I had the opportunity to listen carefully to their experiences in what were very informative meetings. I wish to say I absolutely believe them. I respect the sincerity and courage it took to bring those stories forward. I express my deep appreciation to the women, both former and serving members, for highlighting this serious matter and for taking the time to meet me. Participants from the Women of Honour group met with the Secretary General and senior officials from my Department last Thursday and I understand this was also a productive meeting.

It is clear to me, the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General that there are very strong views that the culture that is pervading, and the application of the current policies, systems and procedures in place for dealing with bullying, harassment, discrimination, sexual harassment and sexual assault, have not and are not serving all Defence Forces personnel well and as they should be. I take this opportunity to apologise to anyone who has suffered during their time in the Defence Forces and to assure them the State will carry out an independent review, which will be undertaken by external and entirely independent and unbiased experts in this field. This review will examine the effectiveness of these policies, systems and procedures.

The terms of the review, which are in the process of being finalised, are being reviewed in light of recent meetings with the Women of Honour group and with serving female personnel.

Further engagement with the Women of Honour group on the terms of the review will happen. In addition, engagement with other stakeholders, including the representative associations, is also scheduled and will additionally inform the terms. The Commission on the Defence Forces which was established in December 2020 is due to report by the end of December 2021 and its views will also be an important aid to the independent review. It is my understanding that the work of the commission in this area is quite focused and will be helpful.

Finally, I wish to assure the Deputy that I, as Minister, the Chief of Staff and the Secretary General of my Department are fully committed to ensuring that all members of the Defence Forces, both male and female, have the right to be treated with respect, equality and dignity and to carry out their duties in a safe workplace, underpinned by a culture of zero tolerance for any kind of bullying, discrimination or harassment. It is our job to make sure that becomes a reality on the ground.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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This question is being taken with No. 86, so Deputy Gannon will get the opportunity to contribute after Deputy Clarke.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister. I want to take this opportunity to put on the record of this House my utter revulsion at the experiences these women detailed, my admiration for their bravery and determination but also my anger that in 2021 these exceptional women were forced to tell their stories so very publicly on national radio for an appropriate mechanism to be discussed. Let us be very clear that what they spoke of was sexual abuse, discrimination and harassment. In the interests of fairness, it is important to read into the record today a line from a letter sent by the Chief of Staff to members of the Defence Forces:

I am acutely aware that these inappropriate behaviours are abhorrent to the vast majority of men and women of the Defence Forces.

I welcome what appears to be a complete 180° turn by the Minister since we last spoke on this issue on 13 May. At that time the Minister said there was a robust system in place, there were policies and procedures regarding sexual harassment and bullying in the Defence Forces and there was supportive workplace culture. This is a very important first step in what must be a series of further steps.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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We do not need an independent inquiry to tell us that certain practices are abhorrent. The Minister for Defence must act immediately to amend the law so that victims of rape or sexual assault in the Defence Forces can no longer be cross-examined by their abusers. The harrowing revelations in the "Women of Honour" documentary have shone a spotlight on the toxic culture of sexual abuse and bullying that exists in the Defence Forces. The Social Democrats welcome the apology from the Minister for Defence to the female members of the Defence Forces who have suffered abuse and harassment over three decades. However, the Minister must take immediate action to ensure that women who make accusations of rape or sexual assault can no longer be cross-examined by their alleged attackers when these complaints are being investigated internally by military police.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The first thing I want to do is to work with the women we have met, and who we will meet again, to try to finalise the terms of this review. I hope we will get the agreement and confidence of everybody that the people who are going to lead it are fit to do so. I would like to have international expertise as well as some very credible and strong Irish leadership. We have said that we are not going to rush this. It will take a few weeks to get it right and we must do that. Let us not forget that more than 20 years ago, Dr. Tom Clonan completed a doctoral thesis on this issue involving survey work across the Defence Forces. He made some very strong conclusions and after that, a whole series of things were done. We have had three different independent monitoring groups with recommendations-----

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister, who will have an opportunity to come back in.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will answer Deputy Gannon's question directly when I come back in.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It is absolutely critical that this review does not just focus on the failings of the Defence Forces as an institution but also looks at those individuals who obstructed any mechanism that was in place at the time, including those who deliberately prevented victims from coming forward to report or from feeling that they had gotten justice. What engagement has the Minister had with his legal advisers regarding the waiving of non-disclosure agreements that may exist and regarding settlements that have been reached with members of the Defence Forces vis-à-visabuse allegations? I spoke to Dr. Tom Clonan recently and he is rather dismayed that after all of this time, not one person in the Department has picked up the phone to contact him. There has been no follow-up with him or, I suggest, with the women who engaged with him for his doctoral research.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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The Minister has not had a chance to answer my question and I invite him to do so now.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I will answer it when I come back in.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister can answer it now. There are four minutes left so there will be time for Deputy Gannon to respond.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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It is important to say that significant efforts have been made to try to address this issue in the Defence Forces but they have not worked. Dr. Eileen Doyle, for example, did fantastic work on some of the independent monitoring group reports that she was involved in and her efforts are ongoing. Many people in the Defence Forces have also been advocating for change in this space. A women's network has been set up as well as a support network for LGBTQ communities within the Defence Forces. Confidential reporting systems have been put in place but it has not worked for many people. We need to look at the full picture here and figure out why there is still an issue for some people in terms of discrimination and harassment within the Defence Forces which is completely unacceptable. This group needs to understand why what we have done to date has not worked to the extent that it needs to and how we can fix that for the future in terms of a fundamental cultural change. However, we cannot wait for many months while this review group comes up with its recommendations. We must act much sooner than that in terms of interim measures. I am open to the kinds of interim measures that the Deputies are proposing. We asked the women I met this week about the kinds of interim measures they would welcome. There needs to be a safe space for people to report, confidentially, without fearing negative consequences for reporting such as being labelled as a troublemaker.

We are going to set up this review properly and we are going to introduce interim measures in the weeks ahead. We will take a lot of advice on those measures to try to provide a reassuring and professional system in the Defence Forces to deal with many people who now feel empowered to come forward, having heard many of the stories of the last few weeks.

Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Everyone in this Chamber will agree that the practice of allowing an alleged abuser to question his or her victim is simply wrong. We do not need an independent inquiry to tell us that this is an abhorrent practice. Victims in civilian court proceedings cannot be cross-examined by their attackers following the enactment of the Criminal Justice (Sexual Offences) Act 2017. However, the Defence Act was not simultaneously amended to ensure this safeguard was extended to members of the Defence Forces. We must act immediately to ensure this practice can no longer happen because it is abhorrent. I listened to an interview by Katie Hannon with a person who experienced such a scenario and my heart broke. As legislators, we need to act very quickly to amend the law..

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to give an answer on my feet on that issue but I will look at it seriously. I am sure the Deputy understands how the chain of command works in the Defence Forces. It is a different environment from that which operates in the workplace for virtually any other person. That chain of command is necessary in terms of a functioning military but it also needs to be managed to ensure that people are protected. Just because somebody is a superior officer does not mean that he or she has a licence to control another or to behave inappropriately in terms of an abuse of power. We need to make sure there are systems in place that will root that out and hold people to account if they are abusing power. I have to say that we are talking about a small minority of people in the Defence Forces but there must be systems in place that address the issue comprehensively. We need to put interim measures in place to protect people and we also need the independent review mechanism to report back to us, having taken the time to look at all of these issues in detail.

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister has not answered my question-----

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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What was the Deputy's question?

Sorca Clarke (Longford-Westmeath, Sinn Fein)
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It was on non-disclosure agreements.

Kathleen Funchion (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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We have to move on to the next question, I am sorry.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not have legal advice on that but I can get it.