Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the recent findings of a survey conducted by an organisation (details supplied) which has found that highly trained personnel from the Defence Forces continue to leave the armed services due to poor pay and conditions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34628/21]

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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I ask the Minister if he is aware of the findings of a survey carried out by RACO indicating serious issues around pay and conditions and showing that highly trained personnel continue to leave the Defence Forces. We know this has been an ongoing matter and it has come up here a number of times from parties and Deputies across the House. It is a serious matter. It has also been highlighted that highly qualified people, including one in three officers, have stated they would not recommend the Defence Forces as a career for young people. It is very concerning.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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We can look at many people joining the Defence Forces whose parents were previously in the service, so there are also many people absolutely recommending a career there. We need to focus on ensuring balance in the discussion.

The survey to which the Deputy refers highlighted that pay in the private sector is one of a number of reasons some personnel leave the Defence Forces. There are, however, many reasons individuals may leave the Defence Forces, ranging from individual personal circumstances, other career opportunities, having fulfilled their contract or retirement on age grounds. A career in the Defence Forces offers personnel significant opportunities, including education and training opportunities.

Pay has been highlighted as an issue but there has been significant progress in recent years. The Defence Forces received pay increases in line with the public service stability agreement, the most recent of which was a 2% increase on annualised salaries from 1 October 2020. The restoration of the 5% cut in allowances imposed under the financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, legislation, was also restored from 1 October 2020.

In addition to the general round of pay increases awarded to public servants, members of the Permanent Defence Force have also benefited from the implementation of increases in Defence Forces allowances as recommended by the Public Service Pay Commission. These included a 10% increase in military service allowance, the restoration of a 10% cut applied to a number of Defence Forces allowances under the Haddington Road pay agreement, the restoration of premium rates for weekend security duty allowances and the restoration of a service commitment scheme for pilots.

The introduction of a new seagoing service commitment scheme for Naval Service personnel came into effect from 1 January 2021 and is aimed at retaining highly trained and experienced personnel and incentivising seagoing duties.

A seagoing naval personnel tax credit of €1,270 was applied in the 2020 tax year for members of the Naval Service who served 80 days or more at sea on board a naval vessel in 2019. This tax credit has been extended for a further year and is increased to €1,500 for the 2021 tax year.

The point I make is that, yes, we have pay and allowance issues, but we are trying to improve income and allowances across the Defence Forces all the time. I have just given many examples of that.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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Clearly there is a need for significant improvement. The findings of the survey carried out by the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, show us this. The Minister has called out some of these issues. It is concerning that Defence Forces numbers are now at 8,500, which is an all-time low. As reported by Sean O'Riordan, the RACO survey found that almost two thirds of respondents said they left the Defence Forces for better pay in the private sector. Does this not suggest the need for improvement, and quickly, to recruit people in and keep them there?

More than half of those who responded experienced a better work-life balance as a result of leaving to work in the private sector. It also reported that opinions on career management and organisational leadership were generally negative. Again, this is an issue that needs to be addressed if we are to ensure the numbers in the Defence Forces are increased and retained.

From the article by Mr. O'Riordan, I understand the latest survey by RACO mirrors findings in a 2017 survey that highlighted poor pay, lack of expertise caused by an exodus of highly trained personnel, exhaustion as a result of double and treble-jobbing to fill the gaps, and inadequate barrack accommodation. These are serious issues and are causing a lot of problems. They cause the sector to be quite dysfunctional.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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There are issues, but if people are leaving the Defence Forces because they are targeted by a private sector that wants to offer them more money, then this is a choice people will make. We cannot chase the private sector in pay levels all the time. There are many, highly qualified and talented people in the Defence Forces who get job offers to leave the Defence Forces because of the skill sets they have. We must respect those decisions. People also leave other parts of the public sector in the same way. We face turnover. The challenge we face currently in the Defence Forces is that our starting point is significantly below where it should be and we have not been recruiting at the same pace as the turnover of people leaving. We are, of course, looking at that.

The recent pay agreement results in pay increases and looks at a number of other positive issues for the Defence Forces. We have an independent commission on the Defence Forces and on its future which will report before the end of the year. It has been asked to look at pay structures and allowances. We committed in the programme for Government to set up a specific pay body for the Defence Forces to recognise the uniqueness of service in the Defence Forces. We are doing a lot in this space to address the genuine problems that are there.

Carol Nolan (Laois-Offaly, Independent)
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There are personnel who have served in the Defence Forces and enjoyed their time there, but many of the personnel felt they had no choice but to leave to work in the private sector where they could earn a decent living to support their families. This is the crux of the situation. The general secretary of RACO, Commandant Conor King, has pointed out that 2020 was the year the Defence Forces recruitment and retention crisis should have been resolved. The conditions were perfect: coming into the new year with a healthy economy and a bespoke high-level implementation plan, aptly titled Strengthening our Defence Forces, endorsed by the Government, that was going to implement real change in the Defence Forces organisation and make the Defence Forces once again an employer of choice. Then Covid struck. Now, however, we need firm commitments. We need to maintain whatever momentum is there to have this matter addressed once and for all so that Deputies from all parties and none do not have to keep raising the issue and so the families of Defence Forces members are not subjected to hardship and trying to pay bills and mortgages on poor pay. That is the reality here.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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I accept there is a recruitment and retention issue in the Defence Forces. We are doing a lot to address this. We have had some successes, especially in the Air Corps in bringing pilots back in. That was not just a Covid dividend; it was also because of a scheme we put in place to do that. We are setting about addressing recruitment and retention issues in the Naval Service and in the Army too. We are inviting back and bringing back people who have left the Defence Forces who want to return, at officer level and non-officer level. There is a lot happening. The Defence Forces representative organisations know that because we have spoken to them about it. This is not going to happen overnight. We need to be realistic that recruitment does take some time.

The ask of RACO with regard to pay was to set up a separate pay body, which is exactly what we are doing. Every Member in the House should know that the way in which public sector pay negotiations happen is a collective negotiation for everybody. There has not been the capacity to single out one organisation and look at it separately for pay, which is what everybody seems to suggest every time we talk about this issue in the House. Let us be realistic and let us be ambitious at the same time, to look at structures that can address the retention issues in the Defence Forces, which I believe is what we are trying to do.