Dáil debates

Thursday, 27 May 2021

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Child and Family Agency

11:25 am

Photo of Jennifer WhitmoreJennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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9. To ask the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth the efforts his Department is making to limit the impact of the recent HSE cyberattack on Tusla services; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28456/21]

Photo of Jennifer WhitmoreJennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I raise with the Minister the issue of Tusla, in particular what efforts the Department is making to limit the impact of the recent cyberattack on the organisation's services. I thank the Minister for arranging a briefing last week. Can he give me an update on exactly what is happening with Tusla and what the impact is? Last week, we were told by the CEO it was too early to be definitive on whether data had been stolen. Does the Minister have an update on this also?

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I recognise that the Deputy and others have been highlighting the impact of the recent cyberattack on the HSE's servers and Tusla's ability to support vulnerable children. I have been deeply engaged with Tusla since the attack occurred.

As the Deputy referenced, she participated in a briefing for relevant spokespersons from political parties with the chief executive officer of Tusla. We provided a full overview of the issues involved. The CEO of Tusla was also in touch with the Chair of the Oireachtas joint committee, Deputy Funchion, and all members of the committee were written to.

As an independent agency, Tusla has responsibility for its own ICT functions and has engaged with the HSE, the National Cyber Security Agency and the Garda on this incident. My officials have been in daily contact with Tusla since first being alerted to the attack on 14 May. I have been in very regular contact with the chief executive, Bernard Gloster, to ensure Tusla receives all necessary supports.

Tusla is engaging with the Garda, the Courts Service and family support services on the provision of guidance and information to all its staff. Tusla will place an advertisement on radio from tomorrow letting people know that its core services are available. They are not available by email but are available by telephone, and that phone number and other relevant information will be provided across the media from tomorrow.

There is no evidence at this point that material has been taken from the servers that contained Tusla's information, although we cannot say conclusively that this has not happened. We continue to engage in a very detailed way at both my level and official level with Tusla, offering it all necessary support.

11:35 am

Photo of Jennifer WhitmoreJennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister for the update but I am concerned that we do not really seem to have moved on. From the information we received last week, I had hoped we might have a timeline as to when Tusla expects to be back up and running. Last week, I said I was afraid Tusla was being forgotten in the debate because we were hearing a lot about the HSE and there was no real mention of Tusla. On 17 May, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Ministers for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Justice, and Health, and the Minister of State with responsibility for communications all met to discuss the cyberattack. I was concerned that the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, who has responsibility for children and Tusla, was not at that meeting. It seemed that perhaps Tusla was being forgotten in that whole debate. Has the Minister since had a meeting on this with the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly? It is important the Minister is at that table when these issues are being discussed.

I know the Tusla staff are doing a great job and providing workarounds, as is the CEO, but has there been any indication of a drop in the number of referrals now that we have moved to a more manual system?

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Tusla has absolutely not been forgotten. It has been at the centre of my focus and the Government's focus. I have been to a number of meetings on the Government's wider response to the cyberattack with the Ministers to whom Deputy Whitmore referred, namely, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, Deputy Eamon Ryan, the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, the Minister for Justice, Deputy Heather Humpheys, and the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth. As I said, I am in almost daily contact with the chief executive of Tusla and I have also met representatives of the National Cyber Security Centre to discuss its response. That is really important. The fact that Tusla might not have featured in the public debate should not in any way indicate that there was any lack of Government focus on the importance of Tusla's services and the risk posed by this attack to its delivery of services.

As for getting up and running again, Tusla is looking to migrate its email system back onto its own system. It has a small own-server system. It will take a number of weeks, I think, before everything is back up and running, on both Tusla's side and the HSE side, but I am happy to continue to provide updates on that point.

Photo of Jennifer WhitmoreJennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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One of the specific questions I asked was whether there had been a drop in the number of referrals and whether an assessment had been done in that regard. I think such an assessment would provide an indication regarding the workarounds. I understand Tusla is significantly impeded by this attack, but there needs to be monitoring of the impact it could potentially be having on referrals and children at risk. Specifically, have any court cases been impacted by this or deferred over recent weeks?

Deputy Connolly earlier raised the issue of staff within the HSE being stood down as a result of this and being told to work from home. Is that also happening? I am not sure whether it has been happening, but is the Minister aware of any such issues with Tusla staff? There is a risk in that Tusla staff have come out of a year during which personal interaction was very difficult. They tried to work as hard as possible to reach children at risk. To be hit with this attack, following on from that year, will make life very difficult. I am glad to hear the Minister is in regular contact, but that monitoring needs to happen.

Photo of Roderic O'GormanRoderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I do not have current figures relating to the impact on referrals. I will ask Tusla to provide that information to me and I would be happy to pass it on to the Deputy.

The Deputy is absolutely right about the impact on Tusla staff. They have really risen to the challenge during the pandemic. I think Tusla was one of the quickest social work agencies in Europe to move to working from home. All staff were supplied with laptops. Those laptops now have to be rebooted due to this attack. That is taking place. Tusla has set up a special centre where all staff will go to get their laptops rebooted. My understanding is that all Tusla staff are working. They are available by phone and available to engage with other services to keep the institutional and personal knowledge each social worker has about the children and families in his or her care and to make sure children and families do not fall through the cracks. I am very confident that that has been taking place but I will find the figures relating to referrals. As I said, an information campaign will be run by Tusla over the weekend.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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We will move on to Question No. 12, in the name of Deputy Ó Murchú.

Photo of Ruairi Ó MurchúRuairi Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will have sufficient time. We will probably get to Question No. 14 as well, will we not?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I cannot say. It depends on who will come in or what-----

Photo of Jennifer Carroll MacNeillJennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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What about Question No. 10?

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is in the name of Deputy Richmond.

Photo of Jennifer Carroll MacNeillJennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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We sent a note to the effect that I would take it if that is okay.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did the Deputies make arrangements beforehand?

Photo of Jennifer Carroll MacNeillJennifer Carroll MacNeill (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Go ahead. I beg your pardon.