Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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79. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if counselling psychologists will be treated with equality to clinical psychologists (details supplied); and when the national psychology placement office will be set up. [27376/21]

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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The Psychological Society of Ireland and USI recently campaigned on equality of funding for those studying for doctorates in counselling and psychologists in training. They are not funded, nor do they receive a salary during training unlike those completing doctorates in clinical psychology who receive a salary, a 60% fee reduction and sponsorship from the HSE. I ask the Minister to treat counselling psychologists with equality. When will the national psychology placement office be established?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Collins for the question. My Department is strongly committed to supporting the mental health of the population through the provision of graduates with the key competencies and skills to be effective in the health workforce and to support a range of clinical teams in our health services. My Department understands there is a long-standing arrangement in place under which the HSE and former health boards recruit trainee clinical psychologists and sponsor their training in order to encourage employment by the HSE of suitably qualified professionals. This arrangement is made by the HSE and is not the responsibility of my Department. It is a specific arrangement the HSE has in place to try to get suitably qualified professionals to work in the health service.

The question of whether similar arrangements should be put in place for other psychological specialties in order to meet their workforce needs is a matter for consideration by the appropriate recruiting bodies. Furthermore, my Department also understands that on the basis of the recommendations of the 2017 report of the psychology review implementation group, the HSE introduced revised eligibility criteria for recruitment to HSE psychologist positions involving a combination of the consideration of qualifications and placements for supervised work experience when determining a person's eligibility for employment.

My Department does not have a role in placement arrangements in organisations such as the National Educational Psychological Service or the HSE for students enrolled on these programmes. Issues arising from sponsorship and employment eligibility regarding psychologists and more generally are matters for relevant employers rather than the responsibility of my Department. In an effort to be helpful to the Deputy, I will certainly pursue this matter on her behalf with the HSE and the Department of Health, as I am sure she also will, which might be able to help further. I am more than happy to pursue the matter further.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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I thank the Minister. That would be good because he is in government and should be working in tandem regarding what is needed. In recent years, counselling psychology training moved from a masters to a doctoral level. In the time since that change has happened, there have been approximately 444 psychologists in counselling training on courses. Collectively, they have paid approximately €2.8 million in fees and, more specifically, counselling psychologists in training have contributed approximately 65,000 direct contact hours during their training. All of this work with children, adults, families and communities was delivered free with no wage funding or reduced fees.

There has to be a link between the Minister's Department and the HSE because we know 2,500 children and adolescents are on waiting lists for CAMHS. There are 3,300 adults on waiting lists for counselling appointments. Some 200 psychologist posts in the HSE remain unfilled, which is a serious issue, in particular when we know what is coming down the road regarding the effect the pandemic has had on communities all over the country.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I agree 100% with the Deputy. I was answering her specific question on how one matter she raised does not fall under the remit of my Department. That is not in any way shirking the broader issue.

I want to assure the Deputy that one of the roles my Department is playing is engaging with the workforce planning sections of other relevant Departments. For example, we are in discussions with the Department of Health about whether we can provide more training places for nurses and doctors, what it needs to do regarding placements and what we need to do regarding college places. In the area of disability, the Minister of State, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, is carrying out a disability capacity review. One of the big findings of that will concern whether we are serious about reducing waiting lists. It is not just about money, although that is a part of it; it is also about making sure we have and are training enough professionals.

My Department is available as a resource to any Department, agency or sector of our society in terms of what we can do to help to make sure we have enough graduates coming out of college. One other example is the work we are with doing the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, to make sure we have more social workers for Tusla and the like. We are providing that function. I will take the matter up with the Department of Health.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independents 4 Change)
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That will be an important aspect into the future because we know we need more nurses, doctors, psychologists and services for those who are autistic and all of that type of thing. We have to map that out and decide what needs have to be met, and how we reflect that in our courses in universities and so on.

There was a fee increase in TCD for counselling psychologists. The college has saved a massive amount this year through significantly lower electricity and heating bills and no travel expenses for guest lecturers. One trainee has spent 21 to 35 hours a week on online lectures since October 2020. Just two of her lectures have been delivered in person. Nonetheless, her fees for next year will increase by €435 to €14,924. She asked how this can be justified. That is a direct question for the Minister from these students. They have received no feedback on their fees.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. When she said that we need to map it out, she could not be more correct. If we want to implement things like Sláintecare or any Government strategy to improve public services, a major part of that conversation has to involve how many young and not so young people need to be trained to work in these areas. I agree with Deputy on that and there is a lot of work going on in that regard.

I note the campaign being run by the Psychological Society of Ireland and USI regarding the matter she has raised. I am due to meet the USI very shortly. I will pursue the matter the Deputy has raised on the floor of the Dáil with it and engage directly with the higher education institution involved. I am not passing the buck, but it has an ability to set its fees. The Deputy made a fair point and I will pursue it directly with the institution concerned.