Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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71. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her plans to address large classes in primary schools; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [23964/21]

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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During the past school year, nearly one in five of our primary school pupils were in classes of 30 or more. The failure to tackle these super-sized classes means that many children are being subjected to a significant educational disadvantage, which has negative long-term consequences for their progression through the education system.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate the Deputy raising the question. As he will be aware, it was previously raised by another Deputy. It is a priority of mine and has been since I became Minister to reduce the pupil:teacher ratio, which we succeeded in doing, and also to address the points required for the retention of a teacher, which have fallen by three points this year. That is important and has proven to be of significant benefit to schools.

Primary schools are currently provided with class teachers on the basis of one teacher to 26 pupils which, as I said, is at an historical low. In the programme for Government, there is a commitment to make further progress in reducing the pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools and supporting small schools. As part of the budget, as I have outlined, we reduced it by one to 26:1 and introduced a three point reduction to retain a teacher. This announcement continues to build on this progress to date and for the 2021-22 school year, the staffing schedule will be on the basis of one teacher for every 25 pupils.

The latest figures for the pupil-teacher ratio show an improved ratio of students to teachers from 16:1 to 15:1 at primary level when comparing the 2015-16 school year to the 2019-20 school year. Average class sizes improved from 24.9 to 24.1 in the same period. The most recent budget announcement will continue the positive trend. The staffing schedule, which is at an historical low, will help to ensure better teacher retention in primary schools while also ensuring that fewer pupils are required to retain or recruit a teacher.

The new staffing schedule for 2021-22, taking account of the recent budget measure, was published last month and schools are in a position to establish what their staffing arrangements are for the 2021-22 school year. The new schedule has received a positive welcome from schools. It is an historical low. We would like at all points for it to be as low as possible but it is not possible to do it in one fell swoop. We will continue to work on it.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for her reply. I acknowledge that the pupil-teacher ratio is decreasing and that is positive but this ratio wallpapers over what I believe is an unacceptable situation whereby there are more than 5,000 primary school children in classes of 35 or more.

Any teacher in such a situation is not teaching but is undertaking crowd control. That is all that is involved. There are 84 or 85 children in classes of 40 or more. That should not happen in any economy in the developed world. We need to address this specific issue. The pandemic has highlighted the issue of these supersized classes, which must be made a priority.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate that, as the Deputy has graciously acknowledged, we are reducing the pupil-teacher ratio. This will be at an historical low, 25:1, when pupils return to school in September. It is a point consistently missed that we have reduced by three the number of students required for a school to hold on to a teacher. Again, that was a bold, brave and positive measure in respect of the overall number of staff available in a school at any given time. I again reiterate that, for every 25 pupils, one teacher is provided. That is a staffing level of one teacher to 25 students. That is what the ratio will be in September, which is positive. I am committed to incrementally reducing the pupil-teacher ratio further every year, within budgetary constraints. The Deputy specifically alluded to very large classes. With regard to staffing appeals, appeals can be made where exceptional circumstances pertain with regard to the number of pupils in a particular class or the size of the classroom, as I alluded to earlier. I advise schools to make appeals in such exceptional cases.

Denis Naughten (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is something fundamentally wrong with the system if there are 5,000 children in classes of 35 or more. This has a direct impact on the amount of their time teachers can give pupils. It impacts on individual students and has a disproportionate impact on weaker students who have learning difficulties and on brighter students who need encouragement to move a bit further on. As a result, such students become bored in their classes for one reason or another, end up disrupting those classes and every single pupil in them suffers as a result. We need to deal with this issue of supersized classes. A specific focus needs to be put on the issue, particularly in the context of Covid-19 and the risk of variants in the future. We need to eradicate these large classes.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I again reiterate that we are making progress in terms of the size of classes within our school environments. I will say again that the ratio will be at an historical low in September. We are making steady progress in that regard. For every 25 pupils in a school, there will be one teacher available. That represents significant progress. Schools who need to retain a teacher will now require three pupils fewer than they would have heretofore, a measure which will be of benefit to many schools, particularly small schools. I will specifically say again, very clearly, that we are making progress with regard to the pupil-teacher ratio and the size of our classes. However, where there are specific demands and specific instances of what the Deputy has referred to, large numbers of children in small classrooms in this Covid-19 atmosphere, an appeals mechanism exists. Schools have the opportunity to make their case. I advise that any specific school the Deputy represents should make an appeal of this nature.