Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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55. To ask the Minister for Finance if he will place a quantifiable monetary value on the direct social and economic costs of the ongoing lockdown strategy on the Irish economy; if he will outline its highly destructive impacts on unprecedented levels of unemployment and the collapse of the small business sector; and if he will ensure that taxpayers will not be forced to pay for same through higher taxes after the pandemic has passed. [16757/21]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Will the Minister provide a quantifiable monetary value of the huge economic and social costs this pandemic, the Government's attitude and lockdown have had for the people of Ireland?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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It is the pandemic that is causing the harm the Deputy refers to, not the Government. We are acutely aware that the pandemic and the necessary public health measures introduced to control the spread of the virus have had a huge impact on our economy and society. Recognising this, the Government has acted decisively and on an unprecedented scale.

Almost €38 billion in fiscal support has been provided to households, businesses and our health service. This represents approximately one fifth of national income. Those who have lost their jobs as a result of this pandemic have been supported through the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, with a cost of more than €6.5 billion euro to date. We have put in place a comprehensive suite of policies to assist businesses. The main support scheme, the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS, and its predecessor, the temporary wage subsidy scheme, TWSS, have cost the Exchequer more than €5 billion to date. The Government has also introduced the Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS, to provide debt direct financial support to closed businesses. Those businesses that are not eligible to avail of this scheme are further supported by the small business assistance scheme. This is in addition to a wide range of supports provided through Enterprise Ireland, the IDA, and local enterprise offices.

With regard to the economic cost, the way in which we measure our domestic economy - modified domestic demand - declined by 5.4% last year, with domestic-facing sectors bearing the brunt of the impact. Employment is at the heart of our society and economy, but last year unemployment soared to a rate of approximately 19% recorded in 2020. Currently, just over 450,000 people are in receipt of the pandemic unemployment payment.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I agreed that those assistance packages were put in place. I welcomed them. I disagree with the Minister that it is the fault of the pandemic, however. It is the Government's reaction to the pandemic and the way in which it has dealt with it. I want to outline the destructive impacts and unprecedented levels of unemployment, which the Minister has mentioned. I mention, for instance, the collapse of the small business sector. The Minister has to be real here. Where are we going to go the longer this lockdown goes on? We are in the longest lockdown in Europe. The WHO said lockdowns do not work. We know that yet the Minister continues to continue with them blindfolded.

Up until recently, the Minister said there would not be extra taxes. Recently, however, he said that there would be extra taxes after this pandemic. Will the hard-pressed businesspeople and taxpayers - working people - have to pay all this back? The Minister will have to get help and forbearance from Europe and, indeed, a rollover and deferral of the debt, because it is going to be massive. I believe there were many other ways of tackling it without simply locking everything down and keeping it locked down. That has failed. Other countries have proven they could do it in other ways but we had to be the good boys in Europe. We need forbearance from Europe on this.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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What other countries have proved that the use of public health measures and the restrictions on mobility and businesses opening do not work? What countries have proved they have alternative ways of tackling this disease? Name them.

I heard him say a moment ago that the WHO said lockdowns do not work. I would love to hear the Deputy's argument for that in a moment, given that the WHO has been advising about the need for social distancing and the really big and dangerous effects of this disease that we know so well. We will get out of this and deal with the cost, however, by being able to safely reopen our economy and society. If we were not putting these supports in place, the Deputy would castigate me for not doing it. We are putting them into place. They will have consequences for the future but we can deal with most of those consequences through our economy growing again.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I said that I acknowledge the supports. I am referring to the strategy. The Minister blamed the pandemic but it is the Government's reaction to it and the prolonged lockdown. The Government had no roadmap last night either. Entire swathes of our community and society were never even mentioned in the press conference last night or since. Look at the whole arts industry and what is involved there. The impact both economically and socially on our people is devastating and will be unquantifiable for decades to come. That is why I said there are other models of dealing with it. We have to live with Covid-19 and open up and let our people work. Let them have hope of work. They have been closed now for more than 12 months and are struggling to get back with no mercy from the banks.

Will the Minister bring this to Europe and ask for forbearance for Ireland? I know the Minister has a role in the Eurogroup over all the different countries. We need to be able to offer hope to our people and allow them back to work to recover some semblance of the businesses they had. Is there another agenda behind this? Does the Minister want to break them all and leave them impoverished and broke forever? Other countries have exited lockdown and allowed people to work. Our construction industry is closed. Everything is closed.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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Other countries have exited lockdown after being in lockdown for periods as well. Those are the facts. I asked the Deputy if he could give me an example of a country that has not used lockdown measures to suppress the disease. I did not hear the answer in the statement he made back to me.

I do not know what the Deputy is suggesting regarding what agenda he feels I may have. The only agenda I have is to play what part I can in reducing the loss of life in our country, saving jobs where we can and getting ready to create jobs again in the future when we are able to reopen our economy safely. A plan was outlined by the Taoiseach yesterday evening. We talked about what we are seeking to do week by week and then what to do as we move into May. That plan is there. Of course, we cannot deliver in a single go everything that so many parts of our economy and society want because we do not want to unravel or harm the progress we are making in suppressing this disease and implementing a vaccination programme.