Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I appreciate the Minister of State taking the time today to discuss this important issue. I have had numerous inquiries over recent weeks from the Psychiatric Nurses Association ambulance drivers, who are the National Ambulance Service Representative Association union members, asking if there has been any contact or dialogue between the Minister of State's Department and the HSE regarding the union's aim to gain official union recognition.

Before Covid-19, we all stood in solidarity with these ambulance drivers. We all promised outside the Dáil that we would listen, engage and seek to help these ambulance workers in NASRA fighting for trade union recognition and fighting to be heard. There has been a refusal by the HSE to afford these hard-working ambulance personnel, many of whom we have relied on heavily over recent months, the right to be members of, and represented by, the union of their choice. The HSE has been invited on three occasions to the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, but this step in the HSE framework on dispute resolutions has, to my knowledge, not happened. Will the Minister of State's Department confirm that the HSE wishes to resolve this dispute and has agreed to engage with these members?

More than 500 PNA ambulance members wish to be represented by the recognised trade union of their choice. It is not good enough just to keep ploughing money into private operators to avoid the conversation. In my home of Carlow-Kilkenny, we have an excellent hospital which does an excellent job. All the staff and all the members are paramedics. Today, we have 34 cases of Covid-19. The hospital has been forced to close the outpatient clinic and has asked patients to stay away from the accident and emergency department.

I ask that the Minister of State do whatever he can because we realise how important lives are, and 34 cases is quite a lot. I know everybody is doing their best but these paramedics have come to me for months now and I have brought this up, first in the Seanad and now in the Dáil. I believe they should be allowed to have the union of their choice. These paramedics work hard and have worked hard during Covid-19. They have been exceptional and we can be proud of them. I would like to have the Minister of State's answer.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue today. I again take the opportunity on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to recognise the outstanding contribution our front-line workers make every day to enable the country to respond in the way it does to the Covid-19 pandemic. No profession is more front line than our paramedics.

To move on to the particular issue raised, we are talking about a branch of the Psychiatric Nurses Association called the National Ambulance Service Representative Association or NASRA. This group has engaged in industrial action on eight occasions since January 2019. By way of background, members of NASRA represent a minority number of front-line ambulance personnel out of a total National Ambulance Service work force of 1,800. I understand they are mostly based in Cork, the south east and Tullamore.

The PNA states that its industrial action is in connection with two main issues.

The first is a dispute over the automated deduction of union subscriptions from members' pay. The HSE is refusing to facilitate payroll deductions at source of union subscriptions to NASRA as it does not recognise the association. The second issue relates to a refusal by the HSE to engage in negotiations with the PNA or to recognise the PNA as union representatives when representing its ambulance personnel members. It is regrettable that this group has taken the industrial action that it has. On each occasion, the HSE and the National Ambulance Service confirmed that a robust contingency has been in place to ensure there was no risk to the health and safety of health service users. The HSE confirmed that full emergency cover was provided during the action, which means there were no adverse incidents.

NASRA, which is affiliated to the PNA, is not recognised by the HSE and, therefore, does not have negotiating rights. Furthermore, the PNA does not have negotiating rights for ambulance personnel. The legal position is very clear. The HSE and the National Ambulance Service have no obligation to recognise NASRA or the PNA in respect of ambulance personnel. The PNA, which is not affiliated to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, does not have negotiating rights for nurses working in the psychiatric and intellectual disability sectors. The main union that is recognised by the HSE for ambulance front-line grades is SIPTU. Fórsa and Unite also represent ambulance grades. The HSE deducts subscriptions at source for ambulance staff who are members of SIPTU, Fórsa and Unite. This is consistent with the fact that these unions are recognised as representing ambulance grades. Again, the HSE does not carry out deductions of subscriptions for NASRA because it is not recognised. It should be noted that facilitating deductions at source is not a legal right but rather a concession granted to recognised unions.

Individuals have a right to membership of any trade union, but they do not have a right that such a membership must be facilitated or recognised by their employer. Industrial relations policy has a long-standing objective of avoiding fragmentation in workers' representation in public sector employment and the trade union movement generally. This is to facilitate the orderly conduct of bargaining and other aspects of industrial relations. I can confirm that Department of Health officials engaged with HSE management to explore ways forward by which this dispute could be progressed, but a resolution could not be identified. The position remains, therefore, that the PNA does not have negotiating rights in respect of ambulance grades.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

SIPTU, Fórsa and Unite are excellent unions and they are not the problem, because they do great work. The paramedics who have contacted me want to stay in NASRA. My understanding is there are approximately 500 members in NASRA. Paramedics or everyone else in this line of work do an excellent job and have been fighting for well over a year for NASRA, yet the HSE keeps saying "No". We need to have proper engagement and to come to some solution for these paramedics who want to stay in the union. It is important that the Department and the Minister for health examine how they can address the issue for the paramedics. They contacted me a few weeks ago and deserve an answer. They do great work. The other unions are excellent too; that is not in question. Paramedics have been fighting for this for so long. I do not know whether the Minister of State is aware that they have protested outside Leinster House on a number of occasions. We need to talk to them and to find a solution, as does the HSE. I will seek one and I hope we can find it.

Frank Feighan (Sligo-Leitrim, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to reiterate the position in respect of this dispute. NASRA, which is affiliated to the PNA, is not recognised by the HSE and, therefore, does not have negotiating rights. Furthermore, the PNA does not have negotiating rights for ambulance personnel. The legal position is very clear. The HSE and the National Ambulance Service have no obligation to recognise NASRA or the PNA in the context of representing ambulance personnel. The National Ambulance Service is committed to maintaining positive industrial relations with all staff and is fully satisfied that ambulance personnel are adequately represented through the agreed and recognised industrial relations process that exists within the health sector.

I will convey the Deputy's concerns to the Minister. I hope that, within the Department and the HSE, we might be able to find some way around this complex and difficult issue. I thank her for raising it and hope that, when we go back to the table, we may able to get some resolution.