Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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37. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills her views on whether cleaners are critical staff in the running of schools; her plans to provide pension rights to long-service cleaners; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [40006/20]

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I wish to ask the Minister whether, in her view, cleaners are critical staff in the running of schools, and if that view will be reflected in how she approaches pension reform for long-service cleaners. Cleaners have always played a central and vital role in schools but, with Covid, their importance has increased. Does the Department have any plans to move cleaners into the public service pension scheme to reflect their critical role in the health and safety of children?

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I recognise the important role cleaners play in the successful operation of schools in every year, but particularly so in the Covid-19 context.

I am very conscious of the superb work done on an ongoing basis by the cleaners in our schools.

Currently each school is required to have a Covid-19 response plan for safe operation through prevention, early detection and control of Covid-19 in line with public health advice. Cleaning is an important aspect of infection prevention and control measures in schools to minimise the risk of transmission of infection. Significant additional funding has been provided to all schools for putting in place additional cleaning, and funding is provided on a per capitabasis.

As the Deputy may be aware, cleaners are employed directly by schools using the ancillary grant mechanism to schools. In education and training board, ETB, schools, cleaners are employed directly by that board. The provision of a pension is therefore a matter for the respective individual school or education and training board. Schools and ETBs, as employers, are obliged to provide access to a personal retirement savings account.

In line with the Government Roadmap for Pensions Reform 2018-2023, the Government has committed to developing and implementing a State-sponsored, automatic enrolment, supplementary retirement savings system by 2022. Under automatic enrolment, employees without personal retirement savings who meet certain age and earnings criteria will be automatically enrolled into a State-sponsored, quality-assured, supplementary retirement savings system, with freedom of choice, as always, to opt out.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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To say we give schools the money and they are responsible for this is an abdication of responsibility. Whereas they are not legally defined as such, these people are certainly public servants. It is argued that they are not employees of the State, despite the fact that the body that employs them on a long-term basis is funded by the State. The third reason put forward is these people have not made public sector pension contributions throughout their working lives but they have not been given the right to do so. Like many others, these are undervalued workers inside our public services. I call on the Minister to review the position.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I reiterate that I do not for one minute underestimate the value and importance of the work of support staff, and particularly the cleaners that the Deputy mentions. Cleaners are nonetheless employed directly by schools using the ancillary grant. It is the current operation. In ETB schools the cleaners are employed directly by the board. The provision of a pension is therefore a matter for the individual school, if these people are employed through the school and a capitation grant, or the individual ETB if the people are employees of the ETB.

I also reiterate that schools and ETBs, as employers, are obliged to provide access to the personal retirement savings account. Equally, as I have outlined, there is the roadmap for pensions reform, with a mechanism anticipated to be in place for 2022 for the automatic enrolment of people into a scheme. That should come on stream with an option to opt out.

Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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We have heard all those arguments before. We heard them in the cases of school secretaries and caretakers. Recently the Government finally agreed to sit down for talks to regularise the pay, conditions of employment and pension provision of school secretaries and caretakers, which is a welcome development. I look forward to an outcome that they have waited on for a long time.

These people are critical components of the educational system and they deserve to have this rightly reflected in work and pay conditions. The position for long-term service cleaners in schools is very similar. They are long-term employees of the public system and they do not currently have access to a public service pension. We have many cleaners in schools who have been there for decades. There is an unfairness within the system because they are not entitled to pension rights in the way other workers are. I ask the Minister to look at this position to see if it can reviewed.

Norma Foley (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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As the Deputy mentions, many workers of long standing are contributing very positively and in a vital way to the school environment, especially in the Covid-19 pandemic. I know from personal experience that these people work on a very generous basis in a willing and positive way. They often go above and beyond the call of duty. I recognise this work, which I have seen for many years.

As it stands, cleaners are employed by schools through a grant mechanism or directly by an ETB. We will see how the automatic enrolment supplementary savings process works in 2022. As I mentioned earlier to Deputy Ó Laoghaire, everything is under review, but there is an acknowledgement that this is how it operates currently.