Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the opportunity to raise this matter. I thank the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform in advance not only for responding here but also for his responses to my parliamentary questions and letters on this issue. I hope he, along with the Minister for Justice, can tell how passionate I am about my proposal. I believe it involves a common sense approach to dealing with the plague of crimes affecting society and that will always affect it.

In recent months, I have been vocal about an issue that is very close to home in my constituency, involving families I know very well. I refer to the rise in knife crime. In 2019, over 2,000 knives were seized from our streets. This year alone, over 1,200 knives have already been seized. Hospital admissions in this regard are up by 10% owing to stabbings and slashings.

We must ask how we can target the source of crime. This year has been a bonanza year, particularly for An Garda Síochána, primarily due to the Covid pandemic restrictions. So far, bearing in mind that the year is not even over and we are not even at the end of November, €16 million in cash has been seized by An Garda alone, never mind the Criminal Assets Bureau or any other agency. Last year, it was just over €7 million. The year before that, it was just over €7 million. This year alone, An Garda has taken in more cash than in the previous two years together. What will we do with it? I anticipate the Minister's reply. I appreciate what it is and will not necessarily dispute it but we can take the money and plough it straight in at source to tackle the causes of crimes. We can run youth diversion programmes, new education programmes and work experience programmes and pay for addiction counsellors and social workers. People always talk about sentencing and being tough on law and order but if one is not tough on the causes of crime, one is merely allowing it to continue apace.

I am aware of the budgeting argument. The Minister says we are not in a position to work it out but the money in question is new money. Rather than just ploughing it back into the Exchequer to have it scattered around Departments, we should ring-fence it. We have an additional €9 million this year alone. This does not compare with any of the previous two years. I refer to the additional €9 million in cash that has been seized, not to mention the moneys from the goods auctioned off by the Criminal Assets Bureau, such as the luxury watches, motor cars, property and designer art. Every day on An Garda Síochána's Twitter account, one sees that €10,000 has been seized here and that €1 million has been seized there, or that ten motorbikes have been seized here and that 17 Rolex watches have been seized there. Rather than saying it is great and taking the money, let us invest in the communities that are absolutely devastated by the criminals and gangsters. Let us take the ill-gotten gains of some of the worst criminals and mobsters in the country and invest them in the communities and projects that will make sure the residents' sons and daughters will not go down the path of crime that so many in their communities have gone down. I ask the Minister once again, this time on the floor of the Chamber, to reconsider this matter, if only in respect of the additional €9 million seized this year, and ring-fence the money next year for a new project.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Richmond for raising this Topical Issue tonight and for the sustained interest he has shown on this issue on which I know he has submitted several parliamentary questions in the past. The response I have focuses on the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, in particular. I know Deputy Richmond is, as he has acknowledged, familiar with the responses he has been receiving to date on the ring-fencing of proceeds of this nature. I will put some of the key points on the record for the benefit of the House. I will then perhaps engage further with Deputy Richmond on how to we can try to move this issue forward.

I acknowledge that Deputy Richmond's question is broader than the question of the CAB. As Deputy Richmond has outlined, it encompasses the cash collected by An Garda Síochána separate to the operations undertaken by CAB.

CAB is a multiagency statutory body established under the Act of 1996. It is charged with targeting a person's assets, wherever situated, which derive or are suspected to derive directly or indirectly from criminal conduct. The bureau works closely with law enforcement bodies at national and international levels. It continues to relentlessly pursue the illicit proceeds of organised crime. I note today the bureau had an operation in County Louth that was reported on as well. It is good to see that the bureau continues to be active. The actions of the bureau send a strong message to criminals and local communities to the effect that crime does not pay and that the State will not allow criminals to profit from their crimes.

In accordance with the Proceeds of Crime Acts 1996-2016, all funds collected by the bureau are forwarded to the Central Exchequer Fund. The investigations conducted by CAB and the consequential proceedings and actions have resulted in more than €194 million being returned to the Exchequer as a whole for the years 1996 to 2019. This is an average of a little over €8 million per year. In 2019 almost €4 million was forwarded to the Central Fund, compared to €5.6 million in 2018.

In accordance with the provisions of Article 11 of the Constitution, there must be statutory authority for any State revenues not to be paid into the Central Fund. Examples of such exceptions include appropriations-in-aid, which are departmental receipts retained in accordance with the Public Accounts and Charges Act 1981, and PRSI contributions, which are paid into the Social Insurance Fund in accordance with the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005. The Government draws expenditure from this Central Fund for all public services and investment, including early intervention programmes to tackle crime and the illegal drugs trade. The Constitution requires, and Government accounting principles provide, that public moneys may be spent only as voted or approved by Dáil Éireann, unless otherwise provided by statute.

While there have been calls from time to time for moneys confiscated by the bureau to be ring-fenced, a policy of ring-fencing moneys obtained by the Exchequer and the reallocation of same for a specific purpose runs contrary to the normal Estimates process. It is a general principle of public financial management that earmarking revenues for a specific expenditure programme would tend to constrain the Government in the implementation of its overall expenditure policy. I will allow the rest of the reply to be noted and I will respond on the second occasion to the Deputy.

Neale Richmond (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the response of the Minister of State, including the written response and all the detail and acknowledge that the Minister's response focused on the Criminal Assets Bureau and its work.

I have talked the point to death at this stage in respect of using cash seized by An Garda Síochána and the extra cash seized this year. I will leave that with the Minister for tonight but I will be coming back to him on this matter.

I want to talk in particular about CAB and some of the obstacles raised and pointed out so eloquently, not only in the Minister's response this evening but also in parliamentary questions. Unfortunately, we need to start thinking differently. It is not that hard. This policy is one that many of our neighbours have introduced. We can and must learn from the examples. France's agency for recovery and management of seized and confiscated assets was set up in 2010. It was set up directly modelled on the Criminal Assets Bureau. Those responsible saw Ireland and the great work that CAB had been doing since the mid-1990s. They said they needed that for France. More important, that agency sets aside a percentage of revenue from seized assets every year to fund policy operations and drug diversion programmes. In New Zealand, the asset recovery unit seized the proceeds of crime. The organisation is similar to our CAB. Proceeds contained in the criminal proceeds fund policy, health and customs. Agencies can apply to make use of these funds for initiatives such as alcohol and drug treatment services, initiatives to buy organised crime and to address mental health issues and to generally improve community well-being.

I have already mentioned the youth diversion programmes and education programmes. This is something Ireland should be looking into emulating. I work on a daily basis with Councillor Kenneth Egan of my party. He is a county councillor on the ground in Clondlakin and Neilstown. Councillor Egan is also an addiction councillor and a youth boxing coach. He is one of the people who is in touch with exactly what is going on. Let us imagine we could turn around to him and state that CAB would guarantee a fund. I will go back to my original points. What about the bonus cash amounting to €9 million? That does not compare to the previous two years. We could ring fence it directly. That would send a brilliant message to the most deprived communities and the people in our society who too often we leave behind.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My thanks to Deputy Richmond for his response. I will write to the Minister for Justice and engage with her in respect of this issue. It has always been the case that the Department of Finance and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform resist any efforts to ring-fence proceeds for any particular purpose. They like that to be part of the Estimates process. That has already been the case but that does not mean it necessarily has to pertain indefinitely I future. The idea from the Deputy is a good one in principle. It is a question of how it can be made to work in practice. That is what we need to examine in further detail. I will commit to doing that.

I wish to point out that the justice sector and justice Vote has done well in the context of the Estimates and 2021 with extra funding of almost €200 million going to a range of initiatives. The extra funding is for not only extra gardaí but the Garda youth diversion programmes as well. Extra funding will be available for a significant number of organisations that provide supports in the area correctly identified by Deputy Richmond as one where there is a need.

I acknowledge the work of the Deputy on this issue. I will engage with the Minister for Justice. Perhaps we can take the issue up off-line again.