Dáil debates

Tuesday, 10 November 2020

Ceisteanna Eile - Other Questions

Covid-19 Pandemic

7:45 pm

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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37. To ask the Minister for Trade, Enterprise and Employment if he has had discussions with business representative groups since the move to level 5 in the living with Covid-19 framework; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35037/20]

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste and the Ministers of State will be aware that the move to level 5 restrictions has had a significant impact on the economy, particularly on the domestic economy. Businesses have closed and unemployment has gone up. I am aware the Tánaiste cannot answer today as to the extent to which those restrictions will be lifted but what has been the extent of his engagement with the business representative organisations as I believe such engagement would be very beneficial?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have regular and ongoing engagement with business representative groups and all relevant stakeholders, particularly in the context of the evolving effects of the Covid-19 pandemic on the lives and livelihoods of our people.

I have met a full range of business representative groups since the Government decision on the move to level 5. Specifically, on the evening of 19 October, following the Government announcement of the move to level 5, I convened a meeting with some 14 business representative bodies including Chambers Ireland, ISME, IBEC, the Small Firms Association, SFA, and the Irish Exporters Association. My Department and I are in ongoing engagement with these groups and their sectors.

In addition, in advance of level 5 coming into effect on 21 October, I convened a meeting of the Department's retail forum, which is chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy English, although I was present. The membership of the forum comprises the key retail representative bodies including RGDATA, CSNA, Retail Ireland, Retail Excellence and pharmacy and hardware associations.

Retail is the largest private sector employer in the country and supports jobs in every city, town and village. I am acutely aware that the sector has suffered a significant shock due to the impact of Covid-19 and the period of closure of non-essential retail. My colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy English, is continuing to engage with the retail sector, with two further meetings of the forum at the end of October and last week. These meetings are an opportunity to listen to stakeholder concerns and to ensure they understand and continue to abide by the requirements of the restrictions.

On 21 October 2020, I convened a public consultation on the national economic plan with some 200 stakeholders from business representative groups, social partners, environment groups and non-governmental bodies. This was a virtual event to exchange ideas on the national economic plan, which will set out the Government’s guiding priorities and policy objectives for a sustainable recovery. The event was opened by the Taoiseach and was structured around three breakout sessions, each with a number of related issues to be considered. Further information, including a summary report of the discussions and footage from the event, can be found on my Department’s website.

I also met some of the business representative groups at a meeting of the Labour Employer Economic Forum, LEEF, on 28 October. That is a long, convoluted response but I engage with business organisations regularly whether it is through LEEF, the retail forum, the hospitality forum or one to one.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Tánaiste for his detailed reply. It is very beneficial that he, as Tánaiste, has met the representative organisations. The move to level 5 has had a very significant impact on the domestic economy. There are now 100,000 more people on the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, as a result of the move to level 5 than was the case beforehand. Youth unemployment is a serious issue and we should be careful that we do not allow it to become the excepted norm that we can close down businesses and open them again.

I am conscious that the resolution of this depends on how we respond to and deal with the pandemic but I ask the Tánaiste to continue with his engagement with the business representative organisations. We have learned a lot from the lockdowns we have had to date in Ireland. We learned from the first lockdown that we can have schools open. We have learned from all lockdowns that we can have supermarkets open. I ask the Tánaiste to engage with those representative groups as I believe we will learn more about the type of non-essential retail outlets we can open in the future.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. We have learned a lot from the different lockdowns. Among the big differences between the first one and the second one is that we kept open the schools and childcare on this occasion and we also kept construction and manufacturing going. While we have seen 100,000 more people end up on the pandemic unemployment payment, which is terrible, as a consequence of level 5, it would have been very much higher had we closed construction and manufacturing as well. That would have had consequences also in terms of trade and housing supply. I am glad we took the decision to keep those sectors open and operating.

I do not know yet what will happen on 1 December, whether we will be able to move to level 3 or level 2 or some sort of combination of levels, but I will continue to keep in touch with the business organisations. In fact, I will make a point of engaging with them before that decision is made and also when it is made because the implications will be significant.

Photo of Jim O'CallaghanJim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, we do not know where we will be at the end of this month but hopefully the trend in the numbers will continue as they are and the incidence of the disease in the country will continue to drop. One aspect the Tánaiste will have to be very careful about is that we are not overly or unnecessarily cautious when it comes to trying to lift the restrictions. People will tell him that if we lift the restrictions too much the numbers will go back up. Unfortunately, it is inevitably the case that numbers will go back up but we have to try to learn from what we have experienced over the previous lockdowns and restrictions.

It is very important to look at the supermarkets. They have been open all the time. They have not been any source of a major spread of the disease. If that type of essential retail outlet can continue to remain open without threat to the general population we need to look to see what other retail outlets, which we now regard as being non-essential, can also remain open. I ask the Tánaiste to look at that in a positive light and without too much caution.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Callaghan makes some very valid points but there is one thing we need to bear in mind. It is not so much the outlet that causes the virus to spread. It is not that shoe shops are higher risk than a newsagent or whatever outlet one wants to pick. The difficulty is that the more we allow to open, the more interactions there will be. It is not that the person may necessarily pick up the virus in the shoe shop from another customer or the sales assistant. It is that such people go into town, meet somebody at the bus stop, meet other people on the bus, may stop for a coffee, go in, buy shoes and then go home on the bus and do the same thing again. Cutting out certain activities and preventing people from mixing and mingling reduces the number of potential interactions. I am not sure if that makes any sense but in terms of closing that particular set of stores or that particular type of hospitality business, it is not just the interaction that happens in that business; it is the ten in the entire journey. The whole science, to the extent that it is a science although it is not an exact science, is to reduce the number of opportunities people have to mix, meet other people and thereby transmit the virus.