Dáil debates

Friday, 23 October 2020

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Covid-19 Pandemic

7:25 pm

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing Deputy Mattie McGrath and me to raise this important issue.

The Government is seeking to coerce people and now issue fines to anyone who attends mass or prayers in their church. When the Republic of Ireland originally went into lockdown in March, public worship was suspended. From the beginning, church authorities have worked with the Government to develop safe worship guidelines, including placing hand sanitisers at entrances, one-way systems of movement and social distancing, as well as a limit in the number allowed to attend each service of public worship which restarted in June. There is now disappointment, after all the work that went into the parishes reopening for public worship, that the authorities have again moved to ban people attending mass.

There is no evidence that going to church increases risks more than any other activity currently permitted under levels 3, 4 or 5. This highly restrictive and punitive measure completely fails to take account of potential alternative ways by which the church may gather while also implementing precautionary practices against the spread of Covid-19. That means that even if the country returns to level 3 restrictions after the current lockdown, public worship in churches would remain prohibited. Even the Irish Council for Civil Liberties believes that public church worship should be permitted under level 3 restrictions. The Government's effective ending of church worship is completely inappropriate. It deprives many people of the holy sacraments and leaves many feeling even more lost, disoriented and in need of help and solidarity. The Government restrictions on church worship take no account of the fact that those attending mass and services are the most compliant. Most churchgoers in Ireland are older and more attentive to the safety measures and exercising great caution and care. However, they are being treated with the same broad-brush approach as every other group.

The measures introduced in the Health (Amendment) Bill 2020 this week mean someone who attends a mass or a priest who celebrates a public mass will face fines of up to €5,000 or six months in prison. This is an outrageous attack by the Government on religious worship. It is truly shameful.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Under the new Covid restrictions, a priest can be fined, imprisoned or both for saying a mass in public. The same applies to any minister of any religion who holds a public ceremony or act of worship. This is drastic, draconian and unacceptable and raises questions about the constitutionality of the measures taken today. It is totally disproportionate. The regulations state that no person shall leave their house or place of residence without reasonable excuse and lists 25 exemptions or reasons persons are allowed to leave their home. A minister of religion, priest or any member of the clergy can only leave his or her house in the line of duty, to lead worship online, to attend sick calls or to conduct a wedding or funeral service. There is no list of exemptions for members of the public to attend a church or other place of worship.

We have introduced penal offences for breaching these regulations. It is drastic. In Italy, Spain, Germany, the Netherlands and other countries in Europe, the number of people who can attend a religious service is limited to 30. Only three countries in the world, Saudi Arabia, North Korea and mother Ireland, have banned religious services in public. We cannot do enough to attack the church and destroy the people's faith.

I appeal to the Government. Churches and church institutions have to be heated and must have Covid measures in place. I salute the parish councils, priests and volunteers. They need financial support because they do not get contributions when people are unable to attend for worship. They need support from the Government like any other business. The nourishing of our faith is hugely important to many people.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this important matter as the conversation is very welcome. Earlier this week, the Government took the decision to move the country to level 5 of the framework for living with Covid-19, as outlined in the resilience and recovery plan. This decision took account of a variety of factors, including the views of the National Public Health Emergency Team on the current epidemiology of Covid-19 and the need to take decisive action.

The Government remains united in its resolve to tackle the spread of Covid-19. The disease prevention and control strategy that we have adopted seeks to prevent the virus spreading among our population to the greatest extent possible. The Deputies may describe this as a ban; we call it protection. The basic public health advice and regulatory measures aimed at blocking the transmission of Covid-19 from person to person remain vital.

8 o’clock

From the beginning of the pandemic, we have emphasised the many simple measures that can be taken to do this. These include keeping a distance, washing hands, wearing a face covering where required and avoiding crowds. Such measures do work. The resilience and recovery plan provides us with a framework to allow society and businesses to operate as normally as possible. Inherent in that framework is a prioritisation of activities.

The pandemic has had an enormous impact on society in Ireland, as it has throughout the world. Many people have lost their businesses or jobs. Others, unfortunately, have lost family members or friends. I would like to express my deepest sympathies to those families and friends in these very difficult times. Deputy Richmond spoke earlier about partners not being able to attend antenatal scan appointments with their loved ones. We have now had more than 54,000 confirmed cases of Covid-19 in Ireland. The Government is concerned that, if left unchecked, this number will only increase further. I assure the Deputy that I am extremely conscious of the burdens that have been placed on all members of society as a result of the restrictions that had to be imposed. Many people have been unable to live their lives the way they normally would or participate in the usual rhythms of their communities. For very many people, being able to go to their local church to attend mass with their family and friends is a major source of comfort and solace at what is a very difficult time for our country and, indeed, for the world.

Unfortunately, as we all now know, the environment within which Covid-19 spreads most easily is indoors where a group of people are gathered. At this particular time, when we are doing our utmost to break the transmission cycle of the virus, we must, regrettably, make every effort to reduce such gatherings. I take this opportunity to acknowledge the work the Catholic Church and other faiths have done to put in place comprehensive guidelines to protect their communities, as Deputy Mattie McGrath noted, in compliance with the HSE's public health advice. As we are able, we hope, to move back down the restrictions from level 5 in the near future, these efforts will assume ever greater importance. However, consistent with the level 5 restrictions applying at this time, religious services have moved online and places of worship are open for private prayer only. There are exceptions for funerals and weddings, which may be attended by 25 people.

It is important to note that under the regulations, ministers of religion are permitted to travel outside the 5 km limit to perform a service online, minister to the sick and conduct a funeral or wedding ceremony. I discussed this issue with my local parish priest, Fr. Michael, this week. Monsignor Cathal Geraghty in Loughrea has also spoken about it. In my local deanery, seven out of nine priests are over 65 years of age, with some of them over 70 and others over 80. This is a problem for many parishes in the context of the Covid-19 crisis.

7:35 pm

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for her reply. She said that for very many people in Ireland, being able to attend mass in their local church with their family and friends is a major source of comfort. That is certainly true but the problem is that people are not allowed to do so at this time. Ireland is the only country in Europe that has banned mass and the same restrictions apply to the activities of other religions, including the Methodist Church and Church of Ireland. These restrictions are a shocking mistake. Parish councils throughout the country did a great deal of work to ensure that everything was done right. My daughter has been working in our local church, ensuring that everybody sanitises his or her hands and keeping people safe. Fortunately, I am not aware of any instances of the virus being spread through attendance at the church.

Deputy Mattie McGrath is correct that the clergy and the churches have been forgotten in any compensation package. They are in the same position as many other businesses and this is something that should be reviewed. The Government must at least consider allowing masses to take place.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I remind the Minister of State and the House that Article 44 of Bunreacht na hÉireann asserts the freedom to worship publicly. However, under the restrictions imposed by the Government, public worship is now a penal matter. We are going back to the time of the Penal Laws and the pre-Famine period. I salute the Franciscans in Clonmel, including Fr. Michael Toomey, Fr. Brendan Crowley and my own parish priest, Fr. Garrett Desmond, who have made Trojan and Herculean efforts to get mass services online, with the help of volunteers. This is a very trying time but we cannot just walk all over the Constitution. What kind of Government does so?

People are entitled to go to their church to worship. They do so for solace, which they have never wanted more than they do now. We have a wonderful friary in Clonmel, as I said, and a shop adjacent to it which sells mass cards and mass bouquets. The church is open, fortunately, for private prayer but the shop cannot open. It is an essential service for people to be able to get a mass card or mass bouquet for a loved one whose funeral they cannot attend. There has been no thought for people in that situation. The Government must put some sort of package in place to support the churches.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputies again for raising this important issue. The Government appreciates that people have been severely affected by the restrictions imposed this year. We have provided a range of supports to individuals, businesses and other sectors of society to limit the impact on livelihoods and businesses. The Government remains united in its resolve to tackle the spread of Covid-19. As I said, there have been more than 54,000 confirmed cases in Ireland. More immediately, there have been extremely concerning increases in the numbers of new infections being reported in recent weeks. There have been 1,000 to 1,200 cases per day for most of the past week. The Government's view is that this level of community transmission is too high and decisive action must be taken now to limit the growth of the virus. The evidence is clear that it is the vulnerable in society who are most risk from Covid-19.

We in Ireland are not alone in being impacted by the virus. There have now been more than 41 million cases worldwide and 1.1 million deaths. Many other countries have imposed very restrictive measures to limit the further growth of the virus. This Government has consulted with a number of churches and faiths on the response to the pandemic. This has resulted, for example, in the production of an information booklet entitled A Guide for the Bereaved during the Covid-19 Pandemic. The Catholic Church and other faiths have guidelines in place to protect their communities, in compliance with HSE public health guidelines. That effort is welcomed.

I remind Deputies that we each have the power to limit the impact of the virus by adhering to the public health guidelines. We succeeded in doing so earlier this year, thanks to our collective efforts, and we can do so again. I appeal to all colleagues to show leadership on this issue and promote adherence to the public health advice. This is not a partisan issue but one on which we must all work together.