Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State for taking this Topical Issue matter and know that she will relay my concerns to the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Foley. I have a deep concern that in our fight against Covid-19, we have worsened the education inequality curve. Schools play a very important role in children's lives. That social relationship between school teachers and families is very important and disadvantage was highlighted while schools were closed. The Department of Education and Skills made additional provision for special schools and special classes in the context of the reopening of schools, which I welcome, but I am concerned that in the process, pinch points were discovered and nothing was done to fix them.

According to the latest census data available, the County Carlow town of Tullow had a population of 4,673, of whom 1,360 were under the age of 17 and 885 were under the age of 19. It is a growing town with growing needs. The reason I mention the census figures is I am going to speak about two schools in Tullow that I have been working with. The first is Scoil Mhuire Lourdes, an all-girls school of approximately 260 students. It has been applying for DEIS status for years but has not been accepted. The other school in Tullow is Scoil Phádraig Naofa, an all-boys school of approximately 250 students. The two schools, which are located beside each another, have been applying for DEIS status for years but have not qualified, even though they really deserve it.

I went to school at Scoil Mhuire Gan Smál in Carlow town, which is an excellent school of approximately 410 students. What I find difficult to understand is that the girls' school I attended tried to get DEIS status but did not qualify for it, whereas the school beside it, which is a boys' school, did qualify. As a result, there are now families in which the girls attend a school without DEIS status while the boys attend one beside it that does have DEIS status. I cannot understand why. What are the criteria? The two schools are right beside each other, with boys going to one and the same families' girls going to the other. One school has qualified but the other has not. I understand that a review has been ongoing for quite a long time. I will be looking for the review to be finished urgently and for all three schools to be given DEIS status. I return to the issue of Tullow. The reason I mentioned the town and its statistics is there are three schools in Tullow but none of them has DEIS status. I just cannot understand that.

I have also been speaking to principals in Carlow and Kilkenny about how fit for purpose the education system is to respond to the needs of children with special needs to access special needs assistants, SNAs. Schools are finding it very difficult. They are buckling under the pressure of one of the largest average class sizes in the OECD. Our towns and villages are changing, a point that has been raised with me several times. The review process needs to be examined so that children will not fall through the cracks in their academic years, especially now when we must be bound by public health guidelines on spacing and learning supports for those who cannot attend a classroom.

I am disappointed that my time is so short but I know the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, will revert to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and I thank her for her attending the debate. I ask that she comment on the criteria for DEIS status and on why some schools qualify for it and others do not, even though they are located beside each other. Most importantly, she might outline when the review will be complete so that I can respond to the schools that have contacted me.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy will be aware, delivering equality of opportunity in schools, DEIS, is the main policy initiative of the Department of Education and Skills to tackle educational disadvantage at school level. The DEIS plan sets out the vision for interventions in the critical area of educational disadvantage policy and is based on the findings of an extensive review of the DEIS programme, which involved consultations with all relevant stakeholders. In 2020, the Department will spend in the region of €125 million on the DEIS programme, providing for smaller class sizes and other supports, including additional teaching posts, home school community liaison co-ordinators, DEIS grants, enhanced book grants, curriculum supports, priority access to continuing professional development and the school excellence fund for DEIS. Furthermore, the Government has allocated more than €375 million under the roadmap for the full return to school, with comprehensive supports for a range of areas.

The Deputy mentioned SNAs, a matter which is under my remit, whereas DEIS schools are not. Nevertheless, to satisfy the Deputy's interest, there are approximately 17,000 SNAs in the country at the moment and we have made it a stipulation for the reopening of schools that every absent SNA will be replaced immediately. That is something I made sure would happen.

It is also recognised that schools may require some reconfiguration works and this is being supported by a once-off enhanced minor works grant of €75 million to prepare the buildings and classrooms for reopening, including an uplift for schools with children with special educational needs.

The Deputy asked about the DEIS model. A key part of the DEIS plan was the introduction of a new DEIS identification process based on an objective, statistics-based model to determine which schools merit inclusion in the programme. As the Deputy may be aware, following the application of this model in 2017, a further 79 schools were included in this programme and 30 schools were upgraded form band 2 to band 1 status.

As for the extension of the DEIS programme to more schools - the Deputy mentioned two in Tullow, namely, Scoil Mhuire Lourdes and Scoil Phádraig Naofa, the boys' school - an extensive body of work has been undertaken on the refinement of this model, based on the latest school enrolment data and data available from census 2016 under the HP deprivation index. The Deputy also asked about a review. A detailed quality analysis of the data has been carried out by members of the DEIS technical group, which includes representatives from the Department and the Educational Research Centre. The Deputy asked when the work will be finished. I understand that the work of this group is at an advanced stage and a consultation process with education stakeholder representatives on the technical aspect of this model commenced earlier this year. It is envisaged that this will ultimately provide the basis for a refined DEIS resource allocation model to match resources to identified need.

On the Deputy's query regarding class sizes in DEIS schools, the DEIS programme currently allows for a reduced class size in urban band 1 primary schools, with the application of a preferential staffing schedule to these schools of 20:1 at junior classes and 24:1 at senior classes to support those students at the highest risk of educational disadvantage.

I am confident that the culmination of all of this work on the refined identification model will facilitate the ultimate aim of matching resources to identified need and allow us to target additional resources at those schools that are most in need. Until this work is complete, it is not intended to extend the DEIS programme to further schools.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am disappointed with the reply. Some schools are constantly applying to the Department for DEIS status and have been refused on grounds that do not make sense. When schools that are beside each other, with the girl from one family attending a girls' school that does not have DEIS status while the boy attends a school beside it that does have it, the whole system is wrong. Whatever the criteria are or whatever the information is that needs to be given, that needs to be changed. It is so important that schools that apply for DEIS status get it. As I said earlier, children's lives are deeply affected by school and DEIS status gives many additional supports to schools, particularly in disadvantaged areas, where it is very important.

There are three schools in Tullow and not one of them has DEIS status. That should not be allowed to happen in a town such as Tullow. Of the two primary schools in Tullow that have contacted me, neither has DEIS status.

I presume the Minister of State is getting a lot of requests about the review in respect of DEIS status because it is being looked at in terms of new criteria and so on. I do not want to be back here in six months or a year's time to hear the Minister of State telling me the same thing again. I do not want to hear the issue is still being looked at because these schools I am representing cannot wait any longer. They need the supports and that includes the teachers, students and families involved.

Josepha Madigan (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I hear the Deputy's frustration and I understand that. It is important to stress, however, that there is no application process for a school to receive DEIS status. The underlying principle for inclusion in the DEIS programme is evidence of the need to make provision of supports to schools catering for concentrated levels of disadvantaged pupils. The identification process for DEIS status is based on an objective statistics-based model to determine which schools merit inclusion in the programme. Variables used in the compilation of the HP deprivation index include those related to demographic growth, dependency ratios, education levels, single parent rates, overcrowding, social class and occupation and unemployment rates. These data are combined with pupil data supplied by schools that are anonymised and aggregated to a small area, which provide information on the relative level of concentrated disadvantage present in the pupil cohort of individual schools. There are a number of resources available in the DEIS section of the Department's website to assist schools to understand how the process works and to explain how schools can use the data sources to assess their disadvantage levels.

The rationale for allocating DEIS resources and supports, based on a school's level of concentrated disadvantage, is based on the existence of a multiplier effect, whereby students attending a school with a high concentration of students from a disadvantaged background have poorer academic outcomes, even taking account of individual social background. Research by the European Research Council, ERC, and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, indicates that there is a strong evidence base, in the Irish context, that the social class mix of a school matters, providing a rationale for prioritising supports for those schools that cater for those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds. I assure the Deputy I will bring the concerns she has raised back to the Department.

Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That is not proper information. That is wrong information.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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That was the second Topical Issue matter and we will move back to the first Topical Issue matter now. I thank the Minister of State and the Deputy for facilitating that.