Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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25. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the review she plans to carry out of the means testing of social welfare payments and payments under the community employment and rural social schemes to ensure means testing is not acting as a disincentive to saving money or to the increasing of employed or self-employed income; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [18538/20]

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Since moving to the west many years ago and finding out about the means testing system, I have always believed it to be penal. We often speak of how the tax system can act as a disincentive to workers saving but it also fair to admit that the social welfare system does that more. I will give one example. In the case of most working age means tested payments, with the exception of disability, which I will discuss when we reach Question No. 28, any savings over-----

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy should only introduce the question.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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-----€40,000 are considered as if they generated an income of 20% per annum.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. I understand the question seeks my view on whether the weekly payment rates for schemes such as the community employment, rural social and Tús schemes represent a fair and adequate incentive to a married person to participate in the schemes. My Department provides a range of social employment and training programmes that are targeted at long-term unemployed jobseekers and those most distant from the labour market. These supports include the community employment, Tús and rural social schemes.  The rural social scheme provides local employment opportunities for low income farmers and fisherman. Deputy Ó Cuív is very familiar with the rural social and Tús schemes as he designed and introduced them as Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.  I commend him on that initiative as I am very aware of the benefits that these schemes bring to communities throughout Ireland, in particular rural communities.

 The aims of the community employment programme and the rural social and Tús schemes are to enhance the employability of disadvantaged and unemployed people by providing work experience and training opportunities for participants.  The payment rates for participants on these schemes are based on the underlying value of their social protection payment plus an additional payment of €22.50 per week, with a minimum payment to each participant of €225.50 per week.  In addition, a participant may be eligible for additional weekly payments in respect of any qualified dependent adult and for each dependent child, depending on the household composition and means.

Rural social scheme participants work 19.5 hours per week and the agreed hours are based on a farmer or fisher-friendly schedule.  This is to ensure that participation on the scheme does not adversely affect normal farming or fishing activity. 

Participating on employment support schemes such as the community employment and rural social schemes also provides participants with an opportunity to pursue additional employment outside of the 19.5 hours required of the schemes.  In the case of the rural social scheme in particular, it should be noted that scheme participants have other income from self-employment as farmers or fisherman.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister reads the question, she will see that it covers all means testing on social welfare schemes, community employment schemes and the rural social scheme. I presume she is aware that where a person on the jobseeker's allowance, for example, has income from self-employment other than farming, the Department means tests that self-employed income at 100%. In other words, if a person earns €30 a week from self-employment, he or she will lose €30 a week from the jobseeker's allowance. In the case of farmers, with the exception of the environmental schemes, for every €100 earned, €70 is taken back. The top tax earners in the country are not penalised like that. Does the Minister believe that is fair? Is it not time we looked at this again and introduced a much fairer system for people who have small incomes from self-employment on farms?

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I would be happy to sit down with the Deputy to discuss these schemes, which are good initiatives. If improvements are necessary, I would like to hear what they are. I will meet the Deputy with my officials to examine this issue and hear how he believes the schemes can be improved. I want the system to help people and to be fair and equitable. I do not want to see people disadvantaged.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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There is an open door for the Deputy.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for the very positive response. In the standard reply she provided, she implied that the rural social scheme is an activation scheme to help people get employment. That is certainly not the way the scheme was designed. It was designed as a supplementary income scheme in return for a substantial contribution to services in local parishes up and down the country by small farmers to supplement their income. It has been very successful in that regard.

Until Joan Burton was appointed Minister for Social Protection, people on the rural social scheme were entitled to the full basic entitlement, in other words, there was no penalty for having a farm because by definition all participants had a farm. Now we expect people to work for 19.5 hours per week for the generous sum of €22.50. This is not an activation scheme but a work scheme. Does the Minister believe that a rate of just over €1 per hour is recompense for the high quality work being done by these workers? Will she also discuss this with me when we meet because I would like to discuss the idea behind the scheme? It was definitely not an activation scheme; it was a work scheme in return for an income.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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Another door for the Minister to open.

Heather Humphreys (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy and I have worked on a number of issues to which we got very satisfactory resolutions. I am happy to go through these schemes with him. He will be able to give me valuable information. I want to work with people on examining issues and, where possible, improving them.