Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The issue of school secretaries was previously discussed in the House. I understand that an insulting and paltry increase of 1.5% was offered at the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and the talks have broken down. The secretaries were not looking for a particular increase but, rather, parity with secretaries in education and training board, ETB, schools and, most importantly, to be directly employed by the Department. As the Minister and I are aware, many of them are employed on a piecemeal basis through the principal's budget and without the benefit of maternity pay, sick pay, a pension etc. The issue of parity is not just about the financial aspect; it is also about acknowledgement and respect. Of course, finances are very important to the secretaries, but the offer of 1.5% while ignoring the issues that brought them into the forum in the first place is unacceptable. The Minister and the Department must give a commitment to the secretaries. They do an amazing job. Their multitasking is unbelievable, as previously recognised in the House. We should acknowledge that by treating them properly.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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As the Minister knows well, having spoken on the issue on several occasions while in office and previously, secretaries employed directly by the Department of Education and Skills can earn double or even triple the wages of those employed directly by schools, as well as enjoying far better terms and conditions. Indeed, the Minister previously gave full commitments to a very good campaign on this issue in County Donegal. Secretaries employed by the Department are permanent staff, often with a pension, whereas those employed privately by schools have significantly less tenure in office. It is manifestly unfair for people with the same qualifications who do the same job to the same standard to have vastly differing wage scales and employment conditions. The Minister is aware of this issue having discussed it on many occasions. A campaign was launched and the Minister gave the all-clear for the matter to go to the WRC, as he was required to do. There was significant pressure from the House in that regard. However, the talks have broken down because he went to the WRC and offered an increase of 1.5%. The issue is about terms and conditions rather than money. The failure of the talks is the responsibility of the Minister as he is the one who decided to go in with an offer of 1.5%. He needs to set out a proper pathway to avoid strike action.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Secretaries are the heartbeat of schools. They do so much to ensure that schools function properly for staff, parents and teachers. It will shock the public to know that the vast majority of school secretaries are paid on a lower scale than their contemporaries employed by the Department. They have no pension entitlements and do not know where they stand from year to year. They only get paid during term time, with the result that many must go on the dole during school holidays. There is a two-tier system which is completely unfair. The secretaries want dignity, respect and parity of pay and esteem for the work they do. The Minister has made all the right noises, particularly in early October during statements in the House - called for by Fianna Fáil and taken in Private Members' time - on the industrial action by school secretaries. However, he has not followed through. I agree with my colleagues that his offer of 1.5% is an insult to the secretaries and he needs to do far better by them.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I recognise the very important work done by school secretaries, caretakers and other support staff in the running of our schools. I have spoken to several school secretaries about their employment conditions and understand the issues they have raised. Earlier this year, I relaxed the moratorium for community, comprehensive and ETB schools with enrolments of 700 or more to allow them to employ additional school secretaries up to a maximum of two per school. It is an initial step and has taken immediate effect. In budget 2020, I increased the number of secretaries and caretakers in certain schools to allow schools with an enrolment of 500 to 625 pupils to fill secretarial vacancies provided they have fewer than 1.5 secretaries. Similarly, schools with an enrolment of 626 to 699 pupils may fill vacancies provided they have fewer than two secretary posts filled and schools of 700 pupils or more may fill caretaker vacancies provided they have fewer than two caretakers. These measures will take effect from September 2020.

Schemes initiated in 1978 and 1979 for the employment of clerical officers and caretakers in schools were withdrawn completely in 2008 and have been superseded by the capitation grant schemes. The current grant scheme was agreed in the context of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress published in 1991. The majority of primary and voluntary secondary schools receive assistance to provide for secretarial, caretaking and cleaning services under these grant schemes. It is a matter for each school to decide how best to apply the grant funding to suit its particular needs. Where a school uses the grant funding for caretaking or secretarial purposes, any staff taken on to support those functions are employees of the individual school and specific responsibility for terms of employment rests with the school.

On foot of a chairman's note to the Lansdowne Road agreement, my Department engaged with the unions representing school secretaries and caretakers, including through an independent arbitration process in 2015. The arbitrator recommended a cumulative pay increase of 10% between 2016 and 2019 for staff and that a minimum hourly pay rate of €13 be phased in over that period.

This arbitration agreement covers the period up to 31 December 2019. The arbitration agreement was designed to be of greatest benefit to lower-paid secretaries and caretakers. For example, a secretary or caretaker who was paid the then minimum wage of €8.65 per hour in 2015, prior to the arbitration, has been paid €13 per hour from 1 January 2019, which is a 50% increase in that individual's hourly pay.

Officials from my Department attended a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Skills on 9 April to discuss the status of non-teaching staff. Last May, officials from the Department had discussions with Fórsa trade union representatives as part of a planned meeting and Fórsa took the opportunity to formally table a pay claim. This was tabled as a follow-on claim from the current pay agreement for this cohort of staff, which lasts until December 2019. The Department issued surveys on 10 July to establish the full current cost of the trade union's claim. This is standard practice. Officials from the Department met Fórsa representatives in September. Management bodies representing the employer schools impacted by the action were also in attendance at the meeting. The purpose of the meeting was to further explore the details of the pay claim as presented by Fórsa and the nature of the industrial action.

On 30 September, Fórsa asked the Department to agree to use the services of the Workplace Relations Commission to resolve the dispute. As is normal practice, the Department agreed to use the industrial relations machinery of the State in an effort to resolve it. To address the various issues in the claim and arrive at a mutually acceptable solution, the Department is in discussions with Fórsa under the auspices of the WRC. Talks have been ongoing since October. At the WRC this week, the management side met with representatives of school secretaries and caretakers from the Fórsa union. The matter is still being progressed at the WRC where talks are ongoing and subject to the normal procedures, including confidentiality. In these circumstances the resumption of industrial action announced by Fórsa for the new year is disappointing while the WRC process remains ongoing, and I call on Fórsa to reconsider its action. I still believe we can find a solution through people sitting around the table.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What the Minister is saying to the school secretaries is, "Happy Christmas and good luck to you". They are planning further industrial action on 10 January next, and it is not for the reasons the Minister has outlined. They went into those talks in good faith and on the understanding that they were pursuing parity of pay and conditions. Pay is just one element and leaves out the conditions, which mean that they are not entitled to sick pay and do not get paid during holiday breaks or the summer months. The Minister brags about their pay having increased from €8.65 per hour to €13 per hour, but that is no boast over that period of time. It is very insulting that the school secretaries would be offered such a paltry rise without addressing the equality issues. The Taoiseach and the Minister's party pride themselves on the notion that they stand for equality, be it marriage equality, equality for women or other issues where equality is a buzzword, but they are treating school secretaries like second-class citizens. That is what emerged at the WRC and the school secretaries will not tolerate it. If they go ahead with the strike on 10 January it will be cold and miserable, but the Minister and the Department are telling them there will be no happy Christmas for them in view of the way they are being treated.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The secretaries did not leave the talks because of what the Minister has outlined. They joined the talks because they took the Minister at his word and believed him when he said that we must develop a comprehensive mechanism that would provide a pathway to a resolution. The Minister said that to me in this House, but that is not what transpired at the WRC this week. It is far from it, and deeply disappointing. We do not want the secretaries to go on strike. Strike action should always be a last resort, never to be supported. It can be avoided if the Minister and the Department engage in serious discussions with the secretaries in light of what the Minister said previously. I am relying on what the Minister solemnly told the Dáil. I do not want this to be turned into me looking for more resources for secretaries, as it inevitably will be by the geniuses in the Fine Gael press office. I am looking for the secretaries to be treated in the manner in which the Minister promised they would be treated. Can he confirm that he met the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform today on this issue? There certainly was talk of that happening. If he did, could he give us details of that meeting?

Fiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister said that he understands the issues but I do not believe he does. The secretaries want parity. They want pay and conditions that are equal to those of Department-paid secretaries, nothing more and nothing less. They want a change in the employment relationship so they will have a proper pay scale, year-round employment, holiday pay, sick pay and pensions like everybody else who works in the school. That is a very fair request. Does the Minister accept the principle that there is an issue with people doing the same job in the same place being on vastly differing pay and conditions? Will he commit to working with the representatives to address this properly? School secretaries play a vital role in passing information from schools to the Department of Education and Skills. This forms part of their argument that they should receive equal treatment and the work to rule that will commence on 10 January next, unless the situation is resolved, will have an impact on this. Can the Minister give details about the nature of this impact and the work they do in this regard?

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I reiterate that the talks have not broken down or collapsed. We come to a solution or agreement when people are around a table. Yes, there was disappointment about what was on the table. The talks in the WRC are confidential and I do not participate in them. Following this week's meeting, both sides acknowledged that the talks have not collapsed. While the management side must now reflect on the latest discussions, we are disappointed that the union has moved to re-engage in industrial action, which will impact on the day-to-day operation of schools, including the pay of substitute teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs. My officials are continuing to assess the situation and to engage with the management bodies who represent the schools affected by industrial action and colleagues in the Department.

As I said to the Deputies, this is not a situation I wish to see arise. The world and its mother know my position on this, which is that I want this issue to be resolved. This has been an issue since 1978 and we need to reach a resolution. Those are not just words. I am on the record for saying it, as Deputy Thomas Byrne said. My words have not changed whether in opposition or in government. I said it as Minister last year. The only way to resolve this is around a table. I urge Fórsa to take those words in good faith in terms of trying to find a solution. I cannot decide what happens in the talks, but there are representatives of the Department at them.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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They represent the Minister.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Negotiations are ongoing and the talks have not collapsed.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister offered 1.5%, nobody else.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I once again urge the Fórsa union to continue the talks. If they have not collapsed there is still an opportunity to find a solution.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is the Department.