Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the children and teachers of Our Lady of Lourdes national school in Ballinlough who are in the Visitors Gallery. It is pure coincidence that I happen to be in Chamber at this time. It is appropriate that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is also here to welcome them.

This important issue involves the Bessborough Centre, previously the Bessborough Mother and Baby Home. That was controversial in itself, but I am not dealing with that aspect today. The trustees of the Sisters of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary have decided to sell the land. On that land are vital family services for vulnerable families and children. What has developed there over recent years is an extraordinarily high quality intervention service funded by Tusla on a current basis. The family assessment and treatment services include a parent and infant residential unit. It is an 11-bed facility that provides a continuum of assessment and parenting capacity building, a therapeutic intervention for high risk parent-infant families.

The parenting capacity provision is very significant, as is the acute residential unit, as has been well recognised. Post discharge, the Lime Tree project comprises community-based family support service and supervised access service. That is exclusively commissioned for families involved in the South Lee social work department. There is a very extensive community crèche and preschool with Pobal subvention. I understand the nuns wish to sell this as a going concern. This has a capacity of 139 with a staff team of 34, including an administrative manager and childcare manager.

There is a secondary school for second-chance education provided by the education and training board to some of the mothers who avail of this facility. Vulnerable adult students are intensively supported to achieve a leaving certificate to enter further education or vocational opportunities. That school works in harmony with all other Bessborough services, particularly providing parents opportunities to consolidate positive life change whilst using clinical family services. The centre's ethos of inclusion and unconditional respect engages pupils typically resistant to formal education or statutory involvement. There are comprehensive employment support services on the Bessborough lands, again facilitating vocational training and experiences for individuals to return to the workplace or seek employment. That is critical in facilitating the therapeutic and trauma-informed physical environment of the Bessborough centres. There are tremendous synergies between all these different strands of provision. On the wider campus, Eist Linn, an inpatient mental health facility operated by the HSE, is also on these lands. An 11-year lease is left on that facility and €2 million extra capital investment has been added to the premises in recent years.

In one parliamentary answer, the Minister said she had no role to play in intervening in the sale. I put it to her straight that the Government should buy it on behalf of the people. The Minister should work with other Ministers - Health, Education and Skills, and Housing, Planning and Local Government - along with the local city council and combine to buy this entire facility. A master plan could be developed for its extensive lands, which would add to its existing synergies. The sod was turned for the event centre in Cork four years ago and nothing has happened. The developer said he could not complete the project for €10 million or whatever, and I reckon €20 million is now going into it. Why is it that the most vulnerable and most needy of families and children are always at the bottom of the queue? There is a real danger that these services will dissipate as a result of this sale.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to respond to the issue raised by Deputy Micheál Martin. As he outlined, the Bessborough Centre in Cork is a not-for-profit organisation that works with children and families. The centre is based on a large site that is in excess of 40 acres. The property is owned by a congregation of nuns who have operated child and family services on the premises for many decades. The congregation that owns the property is now based in the UK, and I understand that the site was advertised for sale in 2018. It appears that the Bessborough site has a mix of considerable undeveloped lands and a range of buildings. A range of services are provided on the Bessborough site, and funding is provided by a number of public bodies, including the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and the Health Service Executive as well as my Department and Tusla.

In 2018, Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, allocated €1.5 million in funding to family and community services provided by the Bessborough Centre. This was established under the trusteeship of the order of nuns who own the land. Tusla is also a tenant on the site and has a short-term lease for its fostering office. The CEO of Tusla visited the site last week. I am informed that the Health Service Executive also operates services on the campus.

The Bessborough Centre is currently considered a leading national centre for therapeutic assessment and interventions for vulnerable families. The centre aims to keep families together where it is in the best interests of the child. My Department provides funding to the Bessborough Centre to run a range of early learning and care and school age childcare programmes for young children. I recognise the challenges that can be faced by community not-for-profit childcare services. That is why my Department has developed a strong case management system operated by Pobal, and through which a dedicated team, in partnership with local city and county childcare committees, assists childcare providers facing challenges.

I understand that Cork City Childcare Committee and Pobal are engaging with the service in question on this matter, and they will continue to support the service as and when required. This is a fluid situation. There appears to be much uncertainty regarding the future of the site and the services provided there. It is important that all factors are taken into consideration before any decisions are made. I know that many people who work for the Bessborough Centre, or who engage with its services, will be anxious to know what the sale of the property means for them. There are also many others who use HSE or Tusla services on the site who will be concerned.

What is clear is that the property is scheduled to be sold, and that there is a potential risk to services as a result of that sale. I know that this is the issue that concerns the Deputy most. Both the CEO of Tusla and I are keen to secure the future of the services that are located on the site. The owners of the Bessborough property have nominated a representative to engage with Tusla. An initial meeting took place between all parties on 4 November and further engagements are to take place shortly. I emphasise that these discussions are in their early stages.

I know that the Deputy will appreciate the sensitivities around engagement on this matter. We are at one on the need to ensure continuity of these necessary services and I appreciate his support and that of other public representatives in Cork in achieving this. I will continue to take an active interest in this matter, and will continue to liaise with Tusla.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that the Minister's Department specifically will not have the capital funding required to purchase the 40-acre site. The State has invested hugely in the area with capital investment over the years and ongoing current funding. If the land is sold to a private entity, to a developer, these services will break up. Huge work has gone into building up the family therapeutic service. In her former role as rapporteur, Dr. Carol Coulter said this is one of the best in the country. It is nationally recognised and is a national service.

Such facilities do not come easily. I know that as a former Minister. This is a wonderful site with tremendous potential. I understand there was interest in the site by a particular developer who has left the scene due to other issues. Some of it is zoned amenity and so on. I ask the Minister to give a commitment to talk to other Ministers and raise this at Cabinet level. While I am supportive of the event centre, we can find €20 million very quickly for that project, which has taken five or six years to develop. We can find that no problem because of political imperatives. It has to be done for politics as the election is coming, the Government promised it, and its attitude is that if it is a case that it cannot deliver it, it had better find another €8 million or €10 million to do so. Here is an incredible range of services for the most vulnerable in the country, the most vulnerable women, families and children. A good model has been developed. There is a mental health inpatient facility for teenagers and children. Why is it that the State cannot be as proactive as it is in other areas, do the right thing for the future, and develop even greater synergies in future? This is possible and doable, bringing together all the State agencies and Departments and using them to get the right result for all concerned. Will the Minister make the commitment to engage with her colleagues to endeavour to achieve that outcome?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I will answer some of the issues the Deputy raised before I answer his question directly. I do not think it is necessarily the case, certainly in my Ministry, that the most vulnerable are at the bottom of the queue. I agree with the Deputy that should not be the case. I think I have done a lot in my own work, and I only have responsibility for certain things, to ensure that is not the case, particularly in the area of early childcare and school-age childcare.

I have outlined to the Deputy our willingness to step up to the plate with the not-for-profit services provided there and ensure they continue.

The Deputy has outlined the fantastic synergies that happen in the Bessborough Centre and I am absolutely a firm believer in that process. It is visionary and the centre was clearly way ahead of its time in establishing that process. I acknowledge this and thank the Deputy for outlining it in such an eloquent manner. He is right to say that the capital investment has been made but it could also give us a substantial return, particularly a social return, which is what the Deputy is asking for. The services are clearly top class, and I have looked into this since the Deputy and other colleagues have raised the matter. I am very impressed with what I have heard about the centre, so I acknowledge that a good model has developed and there is potential for more.

Tusla and other representatives are engaging with the religious order. I accept the Deputy's comment that it would be good to speak to other Ministers about this and I will do so.