Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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48. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if insurance contributions will be credited to farmers for pension purposes for the time they were in receipt of farm assist; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [43631/19]

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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I am handling the question put down by my colleague, Deputy Brendan Smith, and hope it will not be equated to voting on his behalf.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We would never do that.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Jobseeker's benefit and invalidity pension are now available to self-employed persons and, of course, there are contribution conditions. Is it intended that periods on farm assist payment will count as contribution years for the purposes of jobseeker's benefit and invalidity pension for the self-employed?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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PRSI credited contributions, or credits, are only awarded to former employees to cover gaps in social insurance where they were not in a position to pay PRSI contributions. This would be, for example, during periods of unemployment or illness. Self-employed workers do not qualify for credits. The farm assist scheme was introduced in 1999 to provide income support for low-income farmers. It replaced the former smallholder's unemployment assistance payment. In line with the then-existing arrangements for unemployment assistance, including smallholder's unemployment assistance, and pre-retirement allowance, the non-welfare income of farm assist recipients was exempt from the payment of class S PRSI for self-employed workers. Recipients of farm assist who had previously paid class S social insurance contributions had the option of paying voluntary contributions to maintain their social insurance record, provided they satisfied the qualifying conditions to do so.

Since 1 January 2007, the exemption from class S PRSI has been removed and those self-employed persons receiving jobseeker’s allowance or farm assist are subject to class S PRSI as self-employed contributors on their self-employed income, provided they have an annual income is €5,000 or more. Any self-employed person, including farmers, with an annual income less than €5,000 can pay voluntary contributions to maintain their social insurance record for pensions purposes once he or she qualifies to do so. A person aged 66 or over with insufficient PRSI contributions to qualify for a full rate contributory State pension may claim a non-contributory State pension if they have an income need. The maximum weekly personal rate is €237, which is over 95% of the maximum contributory State pension rate. While it is means tested, there are significant disregards which benefit claimants and a significant majority of such pensioners are paid at the full rate.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I understand Deputy O'Dea is giving way to Deputy Aindrias Moynihan.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for outlining the position. Farm assist replaces the former small farmer's dole. In the past, a limited number of people claimed the small farmer's dole who were at the same time, quite reasonably, caring for an elderly relative or minding children at home. Following the 2012 improvement, however, these people now find themselves excluded from claiming the carer's credit for pensionable purposes. Is there a way to modify this to allow such persons to claim the carer's credit? It is reasonable that a person farming on a small scale would also care for an elderly relative. Someone might have been milking the cows in the morning, taking the children to school, doing a few jobs and coming back again in the evening. Such persons should be able to claim the carer's credit while they had the equivalent social welfare payment. If they had been on jobseeker's allowance, that would be credited.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I do not know and will have to look into it. When they were receiving a payment on top of the small income they had, they would have made class S contributions and have the ability to fill the gaps that may now exist in their records by buying voluntary contributions. When the changes were made to attribute their credits to them, we fixed that anomaly. What the Deputies are requesting now is to go back and allow people who were working and receiving an income from the State to also claim caring credits.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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In much the same way as carers.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying "No", but I will have to have a look at it. Carers are not mostly working. I do not know the answer and will come back to the Deputies.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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For clarification, the Minister said people who were previously in receipt of the small farmer's dole because their income was not sufficient to live on would not be able to claim credits for the period in which they were receiving that dole when they applied for jobseeker's benefit, invalidity pension or a contributory old-age pension. Is that the position?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am saying the position is that if one is working, one is working. One cannot be working and not working at the same time. We need to look at it as it is a nuanced matter. The significant changes made over the past number of years impact on these people while other changes have made positive contributions to other people who were caring.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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As there is a still a little bit of time left for the question, I will allow Deputy O'Dea to come back in.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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If they are working three days per week and in receipt of social welfare benefits, that will be a credit.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about retrospectively changing what was the practice. I know well that the Deputy knows this. Self-employed people do not work three days on and two days off. They might work two hours on a Monday and four hours on a Friday, but it still means they are making the contribution for that week, month or year. Self-employed people make their contributions in 52-week blocks. They do not make contributions for ten weeks and then not work for 42 weeks. It is not as clear-cut as saying "Yes" or "No". We should have a look at it. I will have a look at it and come back to have a conversation with the Deputies again.