Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this topic.

There is much talk about the development of new schools because of demographic pressures. Areas, such as Kildare, where there is continued and sustained growth will be in the forefront, as will places such as Meath and Wicklow, Fingal, places around the suburbs of Cork etc. The intention is to identify those pressures and to provide sites, and ultimately schools, in advance of the need. Obviously, that requires the recruitment of staff and all that goes with a school. While it is not possible to have a secondary school located in every town or village, it will, therefore, be necessary for students to travel.

We have a school transport system and while each child in theory is entitled to a school place on a school bus if the family has a medical card, those who do not have such a card are described as concessionary passengers - the Minister of State, Deputy Halligan, will know that more than any of us - which means they must pay on the bus. The problem is not with the payment; it is with the availability of places.

When places are insufficient, what occurs is Bus Éireann randomly selects who gets a place and who does not. It is a lottery and often people hear the position at a very late stage. I talked to the Minister of State over the summer about this and there has been some progress. I have talked to several families who had their school transport on a concessionary basis for several years, find themselves now to have that withdrawn for all of their children, paid their fee in April or May, and then get the money returned in late August only days before they have to make arrangements and juggle work etc. New pupils, for example, who are also on it on a concessionary basis, also need school transport places. One can see the kind of resentment in communities that is created. I am sure the Minister of State knows it well. If there is no new funding, for example, then growing areas will always be the ones that are under most pressure. If there is a new school development and there are new teachers, it is self-evident that there needs to be additional funding factored in to account for this.

It is not always true that someone in a family with a medical card is automatically entitled to a place. In my area, it is not unusual to be fighting for school places. Section 29 appeals are par for the course. It is pressure all the way in relation to school places. Essentially, we had 19 youngsters for whom there was no accommodation in one particular area. For example, one family applied for the secondary school in Clane. The school was oversubscribed and there were 20 on the waiting list. Then they applied to Leixlip, Maynooth and Celbridge. When they got a school place in Maynooth, they withdrew the section 29 appeal but, because the child is not going to the school closest to the family, the child is considered a concessionary place on the school bus despite the fact that this family has a medical card. The child would not have got into that school because there were no places available. That seems extremely unfair because they have no choice in the matter.

Children are eligible for transport if they reside not less than 4.8 km from the school they are attending, so long as it is the nearest education centre as determined by the Department of Education and Skills. That rule in its own right needs to be dealt with. Of the 19 pupils, ten still do not have school places. It is impossible for parents to juggle if they are trying to work as well. This issue has to be resolved.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy. I have asked the Department to deal with the query concerning her area. The school transport scheme is a significant operation. It is managed by Bus Éireann on behalf of my Department. We are moving 117,500 children twice a day all over the country, including over 13,000 children with special needs. There are 5,000 vehicles in use per day, for primary and post-primary, covering more than 100 million km. The cost is now in excess of €200 million. The school transport scheme was originally put in place for eligible children and the requisite distance was 3.2 km for children travelling to primary school and, as the Deputy rightly says, 4.8 km for children travelling to post-primary schools and children with special needs. When I took over the system, where there was a space on a bus, for example, if there was a 25-seater bus with 20 eligible children on it, rather than have the bus leave with five empty seats, we put concessionary passengers on it. When that started, there were 300 concessionary tickets. There are now almost 25,000 concessionary tickets, even though the scheme was put in place for eligible and special needs children. There is no eligible child left without transport, as far as I know, with the exception of little hiccups in the system. My staff and I were in the office during the summer until two or three o'clock some mornings trying to get special needs children on buses. We sometimes need carers with Garda clearance for special needs children. It was a horrendous job for the staff to have to do. All children who are eligible for school transport are getting school transport or the rural grant. There is no special needs child as far as I know today who is not getting school transport.

Our problem, as the Deputy rightly says, is with the concessionary children or the second year of school. We have done two reviews of the scheme. A value for money review was undertaken a number of years ago independently, which showed that the cost was €100 for a primary school child, €220 for post-primary and a maximum of €650 for a family. That distance in a car would cost well in excess of €1,500 per year. Since I became Minister of State, we have not increased the cost to families; although the families pay €14 million, the State carries the rest. The problem we face is that this comes out of the education budget. There is not a separate budget for school transport. The budget has dramatically increased every year. We are facing into next year with a budget of between €210 million and €212 million just to keep the scheme afloat. This year alone, we have extra concessionary passengers, special needs passengers and eligible children. We will have the same next year.

We also did a review of concessionary passengers. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform insisted that buses be taken off the route or the price be increased. I prevented that from happening two years in a row but we are now facing into a crisis. Every year, we require more money from the education budget. We put an extra €1 million out of the Department of Education and Skills into the scheme this year. It requires another €4 million to take all concessionary passengers which, if I had my way, I would do from within the scheme and everybody would be cleared. However, we would be facing a crisis again next year with more concessionary passengers, more eligible children and more special needs children because of extra schools and extra pupils going to school.

We are doing our utmost in a situation where we are carrying nearly 28,000 concessionary children on a scheme that was originally set up for eligible and special needs children. We are reviewing it and looking for extra money. The extra money would cover all the concessionary tickets and also deal with the second year of school. We are in negotiations on the next budget to see if we can get the extra €4 million needed. We are dealing with the particular case raised by the Deputy in her constituency and should have an answer for her next week.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister of State. I know some parents will not thank me for saying this, but I have certainly had parents say they would be willing to pay more. Some people are in a position to pay more while others are not as they may be only above the limit for the medical card. If it is a question of having to leave work for people to get their children safely to school, there is no choice in the matter. I am hearing about parents who are driving behind a bus to bring their children to school and they can see spaces on it. It may well be that there is not a full uptake on the particular day but it may be worth doing a review of that. If there is spare capacity, it would be unconscionable. If we are going to have very large schools in a regional context as opposed to village settings, we have to factor in the need to travel to school. If two adults in a family have to go out to work to pay the mortgage, the State has an obligation to provide a school transport service. I can understand an odd person falling through the cracks but when groups of people are affected, it is very difficult for people to take.

I would like the Minister of State to deal with the case of a child who was turned down for a particular school because it was oversubscribed. I will send him on the details. I do not know why the child would then be counted as a concessionary passenger if the family has a medical card. The child should be entitled to a seat on the school bus without it being concessionary. There were no places in the nearest school, which is typical in my area. I know the same thing is replicated in other areas but Kildare is under particular development pressure which will create new needs because we are not in a static environment.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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On the issue of seeing spaces on buses, about 9% or 10% of people who pay for school transport do not take it up. It is very difficult to deal with that. If people pay for it, they may feel they will take a chance on driving their kids to school anyway. We have taken legal views on that and it is not within our remit to return the money to these families and request that they give us back the seat. That cannot be done. It is a legally binding agreement so we have some difficulties. The difficulties we have at present are with concessionary tickets. The scheme was put in place for eligible and special needs children. In the three years that I have been dealing with it, I know of no special needs child who did not get school transport. I know of no eligible child who did not get the rural grant or school transport. We are reviewing the scheme regarding concessionary tickets but that means providing extra money. In the case of a 25-seater bus with 20 eligible children and five children with concessionary seats, if an eligible or special needs child makes themselves available from a village, town or city, we are legally obliged to put that child on the bus and remove a child with a concessionary ticket. I do not like doing that. Often that is very painful and difficult but we are obliged under legislation to put the eligible or special needs child on the bus. I have never turned down a meeting with any Deputy, mayor, councillor or family. I have done my best to facilitate as many people as I can. The system is coming apart at the seams. We are now spending €209 million and some people are still not getting school transport because of concessionary passengers. All special needs children and all eligible children are getting transport.

We are looking again at extra finance in the budget. I cannot say we will get it but I have appealed for it, as has the Minister, Deputy McHugh. We sought an extra €4 million, which would address the matter raised by Deputy Catherine Murphy. If she is re-elected, which I am sure will be the case, the Deputy will face the same problem in that the school transport problem will be cleared this year but she will be looking for another €4 million or €5 million again next year, in particular for concessionary tickets.