Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am disappointed that neither of the Ministers from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment are here but I presume there is a good reason for that. This issue goes back to 14th of this month when it was announced that Kilcar post office was to close. Seventeen post offices closed last year and it was our understanding that no more would close in our county until such time as An Post announced that. Myself, Deputy Doherty and Doherty Pringle attended a meeting in Kilcar attended by approximately 300 people. At the end of the meeting we were mandated to write to the public affairs manager of An Post. We copied that to the Minister. We met the Minister of State, Deputy Canney. We also copied that communication to the chief executive. The only acknowledgement we got was from the public affairs manager. In fact, it was not an acknowledgement but rather a full reply by way of email.

We were mandated to make the approach to request that a period of six months be given to allow for the locals, various organisations and the public representatives to make a case to the appeals panel. Our only request was that Kilcar would be afforded the same opportunity as that given to the other 157 post offices. A very cold reply came back stating, "Of course they can but we are closing and you can submit your appeal then". That is not the way other post offices were dealt with. We believe there must be consistency in that regard. We are making the case to the Minister of State, who is here representing the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, that at the 11th hour this decision would be reversed, allowed to be extended to the end of the year to allow Kilcar make an appeal, which every one of the others was allowed to do. They are prepared to make a comprehensive appeal but giving two weeks is tantamount to saying there will be no appeal.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is a very serious issue that goes right to the heart of rural Ireland. As Deputy Gallagher said, in the past year Donegal has seen the closure of 17 post offices. That is the heart ripped out of 17 rural locations across our county. We were told time and again by Government and by An Post that this was about securing the network, the other 950 post offices. Lo and behold, right after the local elections - the timing was calculated by Government and An Post - they announced the further closure of a post office. This is a post office that serves a vibrant rural community and a vibrant textile industry in Kilcar. Many people will know of the brands that come out of that area and how the industry ships its products through the local post office. A post office that has served that community for many decades is about to close within the next couple of days. No opportunity has been given to the community to come together, to organise and to make a proper appeal to An Post.

The reality is that this closure should not be forced upon the community. It should not be left to the 300 people who turned up at the public meeting myself, Deputy Gallagher and Deputy Pringle attended. This should be a decision by Government. We, in Sinn Féin, tabled a motion before this Dáil last year and got approval from the other political parties that no post office should be closed. The Minister needs to listen to the will of the people and their representatives in this House. It is scandalous that the people of Kilcar are being pushed into this situation. Our ask today is twofold. First, the Government must intervene. Second, at the very least a six-month extension must be given to allow for the community to organise, to plan and to make the proper case to An Post if An Post at this point is not willing to reverse its decision. I am asking for that commitment from the Minister of State.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I sought this Topical Issue debate today I did not name any particular localities, although I did ring the Minister's office to be helpful, to name the two localities I was to talk about. Interestingly, since then, my constituency colleague, the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, has issued a statement on one of them. I am glad of her interest in this topic, but it was not evident until I raised this today on the floor of the Dáil.

I refer to two issues which are similar and different to those raised by my colleagues. One relates to the village of Carlanstown, with a population of almost 700, where a postal agency has closed without any notice at all for the almost 100 people who deal with this post agency for their social welfare payments every week. This is a devastating blow to this village and the people around it who use the postal agency. At a time when we are supposed to protect rural Ireland, we are not succeeding.

The other matter on the post office network is related to the announcement last year, which included the closure of seven other post offices in County Meath, was that some new post offices would open. We were given a list of towns where there would be new post offices. One was in my constituency in Kentstown, County Meath. No post office has opened there. An Post told me that nobody was interested in such a post office. In fact, there is someone who is interested in having it in their premises but the terms and conditions which An Post proposes do not make it worthwhile for anyone to take it on. This village, which is probably one of the largest settlements in the country, and certainly in the county of Meath, without a post office has been promised one by An Post and this Government but this has not been delivered. It calls into question the reality of the announcements last year. The post offices closing was a reality: all seven which were announced were closed and this has torn apart many communities, with their hope gone in Batterstown, Bellewstown, Clonalvy, Drumree, Dunsany, and Tara. I pay tribute to all the postmasters who served in those post offices. When An Post promised new post offices, it was good news but it is so cynical for them not to follow up on this and leave the people of Carlanstown bereft.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae and I met representatives of the Irish Postmasters Union, IPU, on the crisis in the network of rural post offices. The Government has been speaking on both sides of its mouth to the effect that there is no policy directive on social welfare payments being paid out in rural post offices. Rural post offices tell us, however, that social welfare officers are asking recipients to open bank accounts in order that payments can be paid directly into them. That removes a viable aspect of rural post offices. When they lose a transaction, they do not lose that alone; they lose five or six transactions on the back of one. The only thing that will keep rural post offices alive and continue to survive is if they have enough transactions. Part of that is that the Government should make transactions available to post offices, whether online or otherwise, in order that they can remain viable and continue in our communities.

Two motions were passed on this issue in the Dáil, one on 16 November, in which Deputy Michael Healy-Rae was involved, and another in September 2018 tabled by Sinn Féin. Those are sitting on the shelf and have progressed nowhere. Why is that? Why does the Government not respond and implement motions passed here? A large part of those motions was to ensure that post offices would have encouragement and support for a community banking service. A community banking service has helped the survival of post offices in New Zealand and other places where it has been allowed to develop, but it is necessary that the State support community banking services so that post offices can survive and be viable into the future.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday, Deputy Ferris and I, together with other Deputies, met the president of the IPU, Ms Marie Williams from the post office in Tralee who is on the IPU executive, and others. We listened to the IPU's urgent call on behalf of postmasters throughout the country. I must declare an interest as I am a postmaster myself of a small post office in Kilgarvan, County Kerry. I am proud to be the owner of a post office. I want my post office and every other post office to be sustainable, keep the jobs it has in place for the future. It will not happen without the Government's support.

Deputy Ferris is correct about what is happening. I do not want to wrong anyone. When the Taoiseach was Minister for Social Protection, I showed him a document to show how unfair the situation was. It was an application form for a new recipient of social welfare. I told him it was being sent out in his name and was telling people to use the bank. There and then he told me it was wrong and it should not be like that. In fairness, he went away and had it changed. He did not give us in the post office an unfair advantage; he gave us a fair playing field. He had the form read that the recipient could go to their post office or bank, and it was good and sound of him to do that. What is happening now in spite of everything is that people in Intreo offices are telling people to do things through the bank. We are asking the Government to give us a fair chance. This is a very important message and we need to get this straight. Deputy Ferris and I had this yesterday from the president of the IPU. We do not, as postmasters, want a handout. We are not asking Government to give us a grant or anything, we are looking for nothing from the Government. What we want is work. We want to be given new business that we can administer through our post offices, whether it is motor tax, or that farmers would come to post offices to use e-assist to fill up an area aid form or other applications. We just want work in our post offices and we are just asking the Government to help us in that. It is a very ordinary and humble request. Give us work to keep our post offices going.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies from Kerry, Donegal, and Meath for raising these issues. I apologise that I am not a Minister in the line Department. The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Bruton, is at European Council meeting in Luxembourg. As Deputies will know, Ministers of State routinely cover their colleagues. I wish to cover as many of the points raised as possible. I have a reply from the Department but I will ask the Minister’s office to revert to the Deputies individually if there are any issues which they feel are not adequately addressed in the reply.

It has been stated here previously that An Post is a commercial State company and as such, day-to-day operational matters, including decisions in relation to the company and its operations are matters for the board and the management of the company and not ones in which the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment has a statutory function. An Post has an independent board and its mandate is clear in that regard. That has been the case since An Post was created as a semi-State company.

The environment in which the post office operates is changing and the network needs to change to thrive, particularly with the move to digital transactions. These changes are impacting on the revenue being generated by the network as a whole. In the face of serious declines in the volume of mail and post office business, An Post faced growing losses and has had to undertake a major restructuring of Its business to continue to be able to build, maintain and protect a service that meets the needs of communities across the country.

The financial challenges facing An Post have been well documented, primarily due to the impact of e-substitution on mail volumes. Mail volumes have decreased some 40% since 2007. In 2018 alone mail volumes declined by 7.6%. In response, the board of An Post oversaw the preparation of a strategic plan setting out a transformation of the company in both the mails and retail business. An Post has advised that as part of this process, much detailed work has been done to ensure that the right infrastructure is in place to adapt to the rapidly-changing mails and parcels business.

Two years later, critically important decisions have been made. An Post has been stabilised because of the action that has been taken. The implementation of the strategic plan is continuing to yield results. An Post has gone from being in a very difficult financial position to making a profit.

The post office in Kilcar is due to close at the end of this week as a result of the postmaster retiring. The business, including Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection payments, will transfer to Carrick post office, which is 5 km away. I understand that Carrick, like Kilcar, is situated within the Gaeltacht area. Customers can also contact the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection to arrange to collect their payments at any post office of their choice, including Killybegs and Glencolumbkille, in addition to Carrick.

The transfer to Carrick will help to secure a sustainable future for that office and the other post offices in the area, as well as ensuring access to services to post office services. An Post has confirmed that there will be no change to mail services to Kilcar and the surrounding area.

Should the local community or local individuals wish to have An Post’s decision on future post office services in Kilcar assessed in line with the established post office closure protocol, they can apply to the independent review process to have the case assessed and An Post will have regard to the assessors' recommendations.

That matter was referred to by Deputy Gallagher. Any such appeal should be submitted as soon as possible.

Of the post offices referred to in County Meath, I understand seven have been closed in the consolidation process that was announced last year. I have also been told that An Post proposed to open a new post office, with Kentstown being chosen as the location, but having advertised twice for someone to take on the position, it has as yet received no applications.

Key to the survival of the network is the willingness of the public to use the services the post office provides. Investment of €50 million in the network is under way. It is based on getting communities to use the enhanced services provided. There is no doubt that continued transformation of the postal business will be difficult and require tough decisions to make An Post fit for the future.

To respond to the specific issues raised by Deputies Michael Healy-Rae and Ferris, I will ask the office of the Minister to reply directly to them specifically on the issues they raised following their meeting with representative of the Irish Postmasters Union.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I remind the House - reference to it was made by Deputies Ferris and Pearse Doherty - that when we voted on the Private Members' motion, not alone was it carried but it was also unanimous. The Government supported the motion, but then in a cynical exercise it went off and did the opposite. When the Minister of State says it is not a matter for the Government and that An Post is a statutory body, it was the Government that gave it its imprimatur. Ministers, including the Minister from County Donegal, gave An Post their imprimatur to do this. Furthermore, there is the cynical exercise of using settlement patterns, rather than judging on the basis of a population of 1,740 in Kilcar. The Minister of State has said they can go to Carrick or Glencolmcille, but there are no existing transport services that link them. Closing the post office is a much bigger issue because other businesses will suffer as a result and jobs will be lost. I appeal to the Minister of State to request the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to meet the Deputies for County Donegal at the earliest possible date in order that we can make the case directly to him. We cannot hide behind statutory bodies when it is the Government that has taken this decision.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We need a bit of common sense. I invite the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to come to Kilcar to see, listen and talk to the people and businesses that use the service all the time. People are employed by businesses that are trying to build up what is a rural Gaeltacht area, but they see the State taking services away from them. The suggestion made by Deputy Gallagher is one that needs to be actioned as soon as possible. We need to talk face to face with the Minister and to do so quickly as the post office is to close in the next couple of days, although there is no reason whatsoever for it to close. This falls outside the agreement between the Irish Postmasters Union and An Post. The voluntary redundancies have happened. We were told that they were to secure the network, but now another post office is to close. How many other post offices will close if this is the carry-on by An Post while the Government sits on its hands? The spin it puts on it, that any community with 500 or more people will have a postal service, is nonsense. Kilcar has a population of more than 1,000. The way in which the Government calculates the figure is completely disingenuous and amounts to nothing more than spin. We need an extension of time, a meeting with the Minister and him to visit the area in order that the Government can get a feel of what it really means and what it is doing to the area in pulling out the heart of this rural community.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I endorse with what my colleagues have said about their local post offices because the same applies to my area. I informed the Minister's office about the position in Carlanstown where a postal agency has closed. They do not cost An Post anything, but they provide an unbelievably valuable service in distributing social welfare payments. Just like the village mentioned by my colleague, there is no public transport between Carlanstown and Kells post office, despite the fact that the NTA promised such a service approximately one year ago. This is a very serious issue. The heart is being pulled out of villages and people are being told to travel to the nearest town. The nearest town - Kells - is very important, but it is also seriously important to protect villages. I ask the Minister of State and the Minister to go back to An Post with what he has said in the House about Kentstown post office because it does not tally with what I am told on the ground by people who were interested in taking on the position. They expressed interest to An Post, but the terms and conditions were simply too onerous for anybody to open a new post office. The population of Kentstown is approximately 1,200 people and a post office was promised but not delivered, which was the most cynical exercise ever. To sugarcoat the dreadful announcement made last year, we were told about all of the post offices being opened, but then we found that there was no sugarcoating. That leave a bitter taste in the mouths of people.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is needed is an active policy change by the Government to try to secure the survival and viability of rural post offices as otherwise 600 post offices will close in the next number few years. That is the reality. It will happen in the constituency of the Minister of State and the constituency of every Deputy in the House. It would take very little to make them secure and viable such as delivering social welfare payments. In my county Tús, a public body, has been instructing people that they must open a bank account in order that money can be paid into them. That is wrong. They were receiving their money in the post office. Welfare payments, motor tax, driver licences, change of ownership of vehicles, driver and theory test payments, registration of electors, hospital charges, local authority parking fines and toll charges are just a few of the services that could be provided through post offices to make them viable. When we bring people into the local post office, it contributes to the introduction of other transactions. The Government needs to be active in promoting a policy to ensure the survival and viability of local rural post offices.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Places such as The Climbers Inn in Glencar and Browne's shop in Ballinskelligs held on to what we will call new post offices and we are very glad of it in County Kerry. However, we lost other post offices. When a post office is lost, it tears the heart out of a community. It is something that does not need to happen. We can hold on to more of them. I ask this question, as I have consistently during the years. We have great advocates such as Tom O'Callaghan of the Independent Postmasters Group, an independent union through which he represents many post offices. There is also the Irish Postmasters Union. They are all excellent in working together and asking the Government to do one thing - to assist us and not let us go down the road followed in England, Scotland and other places where thousands of post offices have been lost. If they could reopen them, they would, but they are not able to do so. It is like tearing up the rail network and then saying in 20 years' time it would be a good idea to put it back together. We cannot do that because if we lose it, it will be gone. When a post office, like a shop, pub or creamery in a rural community, is closed, there is no going back. I, therefore, ask the Minister of State to help us. That is all we are asking. We are not fighting about it or being argumentative; we are just asking for help for small post offices and post offices in larger towns that are also struggling. Will he, please, help them to survive?

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will try to address some of the comments made. With regard to Kentstown post office, I have a reply that states the position has been advertised twice. The Deputy says that, to the best of his knowledge, he does not-----

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been advertised, but people have not been able to take up the position.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reply states it has been advertised twice, but An Post has yet to receive an application. I can only take the reply as it is.

To answer Deputy Michael Healy Rae on the issue of engagement with the Irish Postmasters Union - other Deputies mentioned a meeting with the Minister - I will relay the request to the Minister.

When I was listening to Deputy Gallagher, I thought of my own town of Newcastle West, where seven post offices were closed during the time another Government was in office and when the same issues arose. The Minister is the shareholder, as we all know in this House because the party opposite was in government once upon a time when waves of post offices were closed. The same issue was raised as to whether the Minister could intervene to keep open the post offices in Ballagh, Mountcollins, Tournafulla, Castlemahon and Feohanagh, as well as all of the other post offices in my part of the country that were closed. Deputy Michael Healy Rae is right that we need greater dialogue on the network of post offices between An Post, the Irish Postmasters Union and all of the stakeholders. We also all need to support post offices. We all have an obligation as people who want to keep services alive in rural areas to support them.

Deputy Pearse Doherty asked about a meeting with the Minister. I will relay that request for the Deputies from Donegal to meet the Minister, Deputy Bruton, on this issue. I note, however, that when post offices in my own area, like Tournafulla and Knockaderry, were closed people also asked if the Minister could intervene. They made representations to me at the time when I was councillor and Fine Gael was in opposition. We all know the reality that An Post is a commercial company with serious financial problems. It is on a path to trying to redress those problems.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae is right, however. In support of the stakeholders, the Irish Postmasters Union, the service providers, the public, the Government and State agencies are working together. We have had this discussion in this Chamber before. One of An Post's greatest attributes is its ability to deliver parcels in future and to use the post office network to facilitate that. I am not a Minister of State in the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment but I will relay the concerns raised to the Minister, Deputy Bruton.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Acting Chairman-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am afraid that I cannot allow-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just one point-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I cannot-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are just asking for an extension to allow for an appeal.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy knows the rules better than anyone.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think it is fair. I was explaining my own previous engagement with post offices that have closed.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not interested.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a provision for an appeals mechanism-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, we must move on.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think that it is fair-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, please. I am sorry-----

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a valid point being raised by Deputy Gallagher. Will the Minister write to An Post-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask Deputy Pearse Doherty to resume his seat.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Gallagher specifically asked me to raise this matter with the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment and I will.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All of the Deputies know that Topical Issues matters are set down here. We all agree on how they are handled. I ask the Deputies to not constantly break the rules. That applies to everybody.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Acting Chairman is no angel himself.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Acting Chairman is a good man at that himself.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy knows I am in a difficult place too.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will all use that in future.