Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason I raise this matter should be clear. Ar an chéad dul síos, I thank the Ceann Comhairle and Leas-Cheann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to raise the matter in the Topical Issue debate. Each day we hear of a new business or community group that has to close because of skyrocketing insurance premiums. It is happening across the board. Recently, Mr. Justice Nicholas Kearns, chair of the Personal Injuries Commission, said that claims arising at the lower end of the scale, namely, whiplash and soft tissue injuries, of the compensating personal injuries, account for more than 70% or almost three quarters of all injury claims in Ireland. Moreover, as the second report of the Personal Injuries Commission clarified beyond any doubt, we compensate claimants here at a rate 4.4 times greater than in the UK and at rates far in excess of most EU member states. One could ask what is happening here. In recent years the Minister of State, Deputy D'Arcy, outlined what he was doing and he produced a report with 70 different actions. If we had seven actions that would have been fine and there would have been progress, but that report is probably gathering dust. There is evidently an unwillingness on the part of the Government, the system and the legal system to tackle the issue.

Mr. Justice Kearns went on to say:

Closure is now the order of the day for many other small businesses besieged by personal injury claims and rising premiums. This crisis has spread across many small businesses, leisure facilities, shops, places of employment and is now causing people to lose their jobs in areas where, but for this market distortion, would be thriving and prosperous. Those in a position to do something about [this] must now finally get up and do the right thing.

However, the Government is not getting up and doing the right thing. It is appalling that we cannot have a book of quantum, as in other jurisdictions, that is reasonable and sensible. I have no issue with somebody who suffers a serious injury making a claim but I take serious issue with frivolous and fraudulent claims. The recent exposure about a colleague in this House is shocking. It sends out a completely wrong message. Questions also arise about certain legal firms connected with this House representing the person concerned. What is going on is despicable and it is time to stop. It makes it worse that the example was given by the Chair of an Oireachtas committee. Often, people who have genuine injuries do not claim because they want to get back into work and into the community. The Minister of State does not seem to be doing anything whatsoever about it.

I am a small business man who employs up to 20 people. I just renewed my insurance recently and it has gone up by 30%. That is 30% on top of 30% on top of 30% on top of 30%. It is just not funny anymore.

Settlements are made out of court for frivolous claims. It is time that the gravy train in the Four Courts was stopped in its tracks. We should have a book of quantum which outlines what one should receive for a broken limb or broken finger. The fat cats, the gravy train and the lawyers should be taken out of the equation, as should the no foal, no fee approach and advertising for cases. We did not have such advertising 29 years ago but we have it now. The fraudulent claims industry is sick and despicable, and it is time the Government did something about it.

Companies and businesses contact me every day of the week. A voluntary community group in Cahir recently had its playground closed down because it was grappling with insurance costs. The county council will not take it in charge unless it is given a guarantee that it will be inspected every morning and that it will open and close at certain times. Community groups raise funds and the Government contributes to their efforts. They are being closed now and many activities are affected. There is a fabulous walking festival and rhododendron festival in Clogheen next weekend but it is also facing issues with insurance. I wish the organisers well. The festival is good for exercise and the physical and mental health of people. However, this sick culture of claims is being propagated and a Member of this House got involved in such a situation. There is a suggestion that adults should be supervised when taking part in some leisure activities. What will be next? Will children be left to mind adults? In this House it seems that the animals are minding the zoo.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not be commenting on the case that Deputy Mattie McGrath mentioned. I have never spoken about an individual case. I have been doing this job for two years and I do not intend to speak about an individual case before it gets to court, when it is in court or afterwards.

I love how Deputy Mattie McGrath is almost always entirely wrong. He said there is an unwillingness to deal with this issue. I have never seen as much desire to deal with the issue of insurance as there is now. However, this is not a simple matter. The Deputy asked me why I do not change the book of quantum. I do not have the authority to do that and nor does anyone in this House. We do not have the authority to act in that way due to the separation of powers. It is a matter for the Judiciary rather than Deputies in this House.

A number of years ago, the cost of insurance working group produced reports on employer liability and public liability insurance. The second report was launched by the former President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Nicholas Kearns, and it proposed the establishment of a judicial council. This council would include a committee made up of members of the Judiciary which would re-examine the guidelines, in effect creating a new book of quantum. That is the work we are doing. The legislation is before the other House. Report Stage will take place in the Seanad, I hope, within a couple of weeks. The objective is that the legislation would pass through the Upper House and this House before the end of the summer session. I appeal for the help of everyone to get this legislation through. If we get it through before the end of this session, I will request an early signature motion by the President so that the judicial council can be established. The members of the Judiciary can then do the work with which they have been tasked by the Personal Injury Commission, namely, to review the guidelines. That is a crucial piece of work. If we do our work in a quick and efficient manner, I can see no reason members of the Judiciary cannot do the same. I have put in place a schedule for the completion of this work by the end of this year, which is a reasonable timeframe. It would ensure that the businesses of this country which have been caught by awards or exaggerated claims or small claims are able to reduce their premiums. The crucial aspect of this is to ensure that the insurance companies do not get the opportunity to pocket the awards. I do not want circumstances to arise in which the awards come down and the premiums do not. That is not what I am about, and I believe nobody in these Houses is in favour of such a move. We must ensure that businesses are allowed to trade in an efficient manner. They employ people and with employment comes the opportunity to access everything that is required for the dignity of people, allowing them to advance in society.

For every one fraudulent claim, there are hundreds of exaggerated claims where people who have been affected through no fault of their own jack up the amounts they are seeking. I believe that is a fact. For every one exaggerated claim, there are hundreds of claims by people who want the correct amount. However, awards here, according to the Personal Injuries Commission report, are four or five times higher than in England and Wales. We must also be careful around this issue. Every business person pays insurance so that if someone is affected by an accident caused in part by negligence, those people will be paid efficiently and well.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I totally reject the idea that I am almost entirely wrong again. A child in kindergarten could see what is going on. I will not take a lecture on this from the Minister of State. Hotels, nightclubs, big bars and playgrounds have seen their premiums increase by 300%, 400% and 500%. Representatives of those groups have appeared in these Houses, lobbying us. Fine Gael has been in Government for nine years and insurance payouts are still 4.4 times higher than in England. The Minister of State suggested that it is not our duty. It is our duty, as legislators, to change the legislation and allow the Judiciary to implement changes within a certain time. It cannot be allowed to dilly-dally and delay matters. Businesses are disappearing like snow from a ditch. They are being destroyed. People start at a young age, get business loans and put all their might and main into it, only to be forced out of business by fraudulent claims which are supported by a culture in the Law Library and the Four Courts. It is sickening. I have been the victim of such claims in my own business. Days can be spent in court waiting for something to happen, only to be told eventually that the matter has been settled on the steps of the court. There are hundreds of people in court on occasion; it is like a bloody Munster final. I was in Waterford court on one occasion, and it is a farce. Everyone is in the courthouse on the same day and it is a total waste of money. Certain people are getting paid because the clock ticks on. It is despicable.

The problem with this House is that there are too many vested interests here that will not allow change to happen. It is time for Fine Gael to do something about this beyond talking, delivering pious platitudes and promising to rush legislation through the House. The Government's legislation will get support from this side of the House because most of my colleagues are self-employed. The latest legislation in the House, the Judicial Appointments Commission Bill, has been held up for a long time in the Seanad and there is not a word about it in the media. When we held up the shameful Road Traffic Act introduced by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, we were pilloried in the media and described as backward and gombeen men. There is a Dublin 4 mentality at play here, with a "screw everyone outside the Pale" mentality. It is time for action rather than words. The report the Minister of State mentioned has 70 recommendations when seven or even three would have been enough. We need fair compensation for reasonable injuries. The legal aspect should be cut out and a transparent system put in place which will provide support to people if they get injured and those with serious injuries are paid.

Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To clarify, I did not say that the Deputy is always wrong but, rather, that he is almost always wrong. I welcome the fact that he has committed to supporting the Bill. He is a member of the Business Committee, along with the Chief Whip, and I welcome the fact that he has committed to getting the Judicial Council Bill through as quickly as possible.

The insurance companies are no white knights and their settlement channels are wrong. Some insurance companies pay out "go away" money rather than settlement money. As the Deputy stated - he is sometimes right - other insurance companies wrongly drag people through the courts, which is not fair either. The settlement channels have to be reviewed.

I believe the brother-sister test should be applied. If an incident happens in a venue that is a business premises and potentially has insurance, it does not automatically mean that people should make a claim. A claim should not be made where the person would not claim in circumstances where a similar incident took place in his or her brother's or sister's house. The high level of awards here and the easy money to be made in some instances have given rise to an attitude where people will try to get what they can out of it. That is wrong. It is a compensation culture that must be broken down because it is not a victimless cost. The cost is not to the insurance company but to the person paying the premium to the insurance company because it will be passed on. Last year, three Bills were instigated. The Judicial Council Bill, which I hope the Deputy will continue to support in this House, was one. The Civil Liability and Courts (Amendment) Bill 2019, sponsored by Deputy Michael McGrath, was another, and I would be delighted if that Bill was passed. The third is the Consumer Insurance Contracts Bill 2017 sponsored by Deputy Pearse Doherty. I intend to amend that Bill, which I also hope to get through the Houses. With the support of this House, we can do a great deal in the area of insurance to protect businesses.

When business is protected in this manner, jobs are protected. Every Member will agree with me on that.