Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the opportunity to discuss this matter. It concerns two citizens of Ireland, Patrick Halpin and Anne Keane of Aberdeen Lodge, and their young family. They are running a modest business and were encouraged by so-called experts to expand it some years ago. It went wrong for them, as it did for so many others. Their expansion failed and they ended up carrying losses. The problem is that a cross-guarantee on their family home and the business that is supporting their two young children is being pursued. Pat and Anne are paying €5,000 a month towards their home and business which are one and the same. Deputy Durkan and I have written to the bank and its agents and legal representatives offering to bring about an amicable solution for both the family and the bank. The situation has caused huge strain for the family. We have approached the experts and agents as two elected Members of this House more than a dozen times, but they have failed to meet us on any occasion. Goldman Sachs and its agent, Pepper, is pursuing the case. Goldman Sachs has refused to meet Deputy Durkan and me, no matter how many times we have asked. This is not what we expect from a reputable major international lender. To my mind, it is a vulture fund attempting to seize an asset that has increased in value by a huge amount in the past few years. The couple has offered to pay off the outstanding moneys on their business and family home, but this has not been accepted or even explored to any great extent. We are raising the issue today because persistent efforts by me and Deputy Durkan as elected representatives have failed to do anything. We have acted on behalf of two citizens of the country and their two young children who will be on the street if the repossession goes ahead.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for facilitating this debate which is about people. It is about taking their circumstances and the advice they were given at a particular time into account. Like a lot of others, they made a mistake during the boom. They made the wrong investment and were overloaded which resulted in their property being repossessed and sold at a value of more than €20 million. The guarantee - their family home and that of their children and their business - is now before the courts and the property is liable for repossession which will leave them homeless.

We fully accept that the matter has been dealt with by the courts. The family have gone through the system. There is a belief at home and abroad that lending institutions must get their money back, but there is no such thing as risk-free lending. It does not happen in that way. People took risks during the boom times, but that was then and this is now.

Deputy O'Connell and I have made numerous attempts to reason with the lending institutions involved. We have offered to meet them on numerous occasions, but our offer was rejected, unless we put our proposals on paper before we met anybody. That is totally unrealistic, as the Ceann Comhairle will recognise. We have offered to mediate, free of charge, to bring about an amicable solution for both the banks and the borrowers. This is not something we have done lightly. We have offered it in good faith, in the clear knowledge that a solution can be delivered. We are now in a position to offer an enhanced settlement which we will deliver to the lending institutions when we meet them.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank both Deputies for agreeing to move this Topical Issue matter to today. I am taking it on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Finance, who regrets that he cannot take it himself. I want to make it clear that I cannot, as the two Deputies understand, comment on the specific matters mentioned in the Topical Issue matter, notwithstanding the sensitivities which were very well articulated by both of them.

The Minister is aware of media reports on a €25 million debt which may be associated with this case. It would be wholly inappropriate for me or the Minister to comment on or interfere in any way with a matter that is before the courts. From the text of the Topical Issue matter, that appears to be the case. The Dáil will be aware that the Constitution provides for a tripartite separation of powers-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am loath to interrupt the Minister of State, but my understanding when this Topical Issue matter was accepted was that the matter was no longer before the courts.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Yes and-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Were it before the courts, it would not have been accepted as a Topical Issue matter.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I apologise. The State is divided between the Government, the organ of State which exercises executive power, the two Houses of Parliament which comprise the Oireachtas with the President, and the courts.

I will outline the Government's commitment to assist those in mortgage difficulty. It is demonstrated by the establishment of the State-funded Abhaile scheme which seeks to find solutions for those in mortgage arrears by providing them with free independent expert advice and support tailored to their individual circumstances. It includes the identification and negotiation of solutions and support in court if they are facing repossession proceedings. Abhaile has assisted more than 11,000 people with vouchers to avail of free legal aid and financial support since it was established in 2016. The director of the Insolvency Service of Ireland recently highlighted the fact that 95% of personal insolvency arrangements negotiated by personal insolvency practitioners had resulted in people staying in their own home.

The latest figures from the Central Bank of Ireland, dating from the end of 2018, show that more than 111,000 principal dwelling home mortgages had been restructured. This illustrates how important it is for borrowers to engage with their lenders as it is possible to put solutions in place. That is notwithstanding the case the two Deputies have raised, in which there seems to be a difficulty in engaging. While there are still too many in mortgage arrears, we are making progress. The number of accounts in arrears has been declining every quarter since the peak in 2013.

I would like to refer to the protections in place for those in mortgage difficulty. The Government and the Central Bank of Ireland are strongly of the view that the consumer protection regulatory framework provides strong protections for those in mortgage arrears. The House will recall that late last year the Government supported and assisted Deputy Michael McGrath in bringing his Consumer Protection (Regulation of Credit Servicing Firms) Act 2018 into force. The Act has expanded the scope of “credit servicing” to include legal ownership of legal title to credit granted under a credit agreement and associated ownership activities. Therefore, if a loan is transferred, the holder of the legal title to the credit must be authorised by the Central Bank as a credit servicing firm. The Consumer Protection (Regulation of Credit Servicing Firms) Act 2015 provides that all of the consumer protections a borrower had prior to a loan sale continue to apply after the loan

sale, irrespective of the regulatory status of the new creditor. Furthermore, the Central Bank statutory code of conduct on mortgage arrears applies to the mortgage loan of a borrower which is secured by his or her primary residence. The code sets out how mortgage lenders must treat borrowers facing mortgage arrears. Lenders are required to comply with all aspects of the code and its protections apply to residential mortgages provided for consumers, irrespective of who owns the loan. The code is enforceable against regulated entities by the Central Bank.

The mortgage to rent scheme is another Government initiative to help homeowners who are at risk of losing their home. It is administered and managed by the Housing Agency.

I will bring the particulars of the case the two Deputies have raised and the supplementary points I am sure they will raise to the attention of the Minister and ask him to revert to both directly.

Kate O'Connell (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. The key consideration for me and I assume for Deputy Durkan is fairness and the humanity of the situation. The Minister of State referenced the €25 million debt, but he failed to mention what was realised when the seized asset was sold and how much of the €25 million had been paid off. We are Teachtaí Dála, messengers of the people. People have asked us to act on their behalf. A vulture fund - I am not its messenger and do not intend ever to be - is looking at an asset, rather than the debt.

The situation is that because of its location, this asset has inflated in value to such an extent. My concern is that in a bundle of loans, this prime asset was picked out specifically as something it wanted to realise the value of.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I have no doubt he will take up the matter with his colleague. I would like the Central Bank to become aware of the situation that affects people in these circumstances. I do not agree with what was said about the satisfactory settlement of 95% of mortgage arrears cases throughout the country. I have a considerable amount of experience in dealing with them, but I will not go into that just now other than to say that I believe there is a good case here for the parties involved to make themselves available to resolve the problem. This is not about who wins. This is not about putting people out on the road. This is not about breaking up a family and shoving parents and their children out on the road. This is about a commercial loan to which the people are making regular payments and have been doing so for the past two to three years. They are willing to increase and enhance those payments. It is about the lending institution, an internationally reputed one, climbing down from its high horse and dealing with people as it should. If it does that, I believe we can achieve an amicable settlement that is acceptable to both the lender and the borrower. We will reserve the right to raise this matter in various other fora as well. With your help, a Cheann Comhairle, I have no doubt the matter will be resolved.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I wish to correct the record again. The information that was available to me from my departmental officials is that the case was before the courts, but I accept what you have said, a Cheann Comhairle. I agree that an issue arises in terms of the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. I will not refer to the particular case at hand but every Deputy in the House deals with lenders and financial institutions. The code of conduct of those financial institutions has been strengthened by Deputy Michael McGrath's Act, which puts the onus on the lender. It is important that lenders engage with customers regardless of the state the loan is in or at. I do not refer to any specific loan. As public representatives, we all make interventions with lending agencies to accept the bona fides of our constituents. When customers nominate an Oireachtas Member to deal with their account, in my experience 99 times out of 100 the lending institution accepts that. It is important for every financial institution in the State to accept that when Patrick O'Donovan or whoever else nominates an Oireachtas Member, for argument's sake let us say Deputy Michael Moynihan, then the financial institution should accept that and should engage with the Oireachtas Member and at least speak to him or her. That is just good manners and it is in keeping with the code of conduct on mortgage arrears. I wish to make it very clear that I am not speaking to any specific loan or mortgage, but given everything that we have gone through, it would be only good manners for a financial institution to engage with my two colleagues. I hope whoever nominates somebody to speak to the bank on their behalf, whether that is a personal insolvency practitioner, PIP, a solicitor or a mere mortal Member of the Houses of the Oireachtas, that the financial institution will accept that.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure the Deputies will bring the matter back here if they do not get the requested response.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and you, a Cheann Comhairle.