Dáil debates

Thursday, 4 April 2019

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Childcare Services

2:30 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I bring to the attention of the Minister the crisis in the not-for-profit community childcare sector. She will be aware of this issue because I have forwarded her considerable correspondence from the groups concerned not only in Carlow-Kilkenny, but also in the neighbouring counties. In addition, there is an issue in respect of Pobal investigations into childcare and audits which have taken place, but also with investigations into community care units throughout the country. Public meetings are being held. The Minister of State, Deputy Phelan, who sits at the Minister's side, attended one such meeting. The critical need for finance and funding in this area and the need for an understanding of how these services are delivered were outlined for us at this meeting. These are the most marginalised communities in the country. A childcare facility in one community has told me that it will not be able to re-register 49 children because of what Pobal said in a recent audit.

It is also true that these facilities are dealing with parents and families, some of which are dysfunctional and some of which have great difficulties. As a result of that, children may arrive late or go home early. The centre, which is usually a family resource centre, has to engage with the families and has to encourage them along the route to childcare and after-school services. That has be understood. The system must be flexible if it is to allow all of the services to be delivered. If numbers are lost in the not-for-profit sector, staff will then be lost. The sector is currently losing staff because much better pay is available in the private sector than in the not-for-profit community sector. Despite this, those in the not-for-profit sector are doing an extremely good job. They are certainly having a positive impact on the communities they serve.

They are allowing families to get out of a cycle of unemployment or, in terms of school attendance and so on, neglect.

While Pobal has a duty to audit, we as politicians, and the Minister in particular, have a duty to suggest to Pobal that there is a need for flexibility. Humanity can be a messy business and, therefore, rigid accounting rules often do not fit easily with the care and attention that family resource centres provide to children in the most deprived areas of the country.

I ask the Minister to remember that these services are being delivered at a value-for-money cost. Those being paid to deliver them are actually being underpaid per hour compared with the rate in the private sector. They do far more in the community sector than just their hours, for example, administration and dealing with the level of bureaucracy imposed on them. At the public meeting I attended, a great deal of anger arose from the fact that they had not been fully consulted. They made the point that, when establishing a Government-private sector contract, there would be negotiation, everyone would be around the table and something would result from it. In this case, all the stakeholders were not around the table. They feel particularly aggrieved about that.

2:40 pm

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Assisting families to access high-quality, affordable early learning and care, ELC, and school age childcare is a priority for me as Minister. My Department funds a number of ELC and school age capital, SAC, programmes and I want to see investment in this area continue to increase significantly in the coming years. I am delighted that First 5, the whole-of-Government strategy for babies, young children and their families, commits to doubling investment over the next ten years.

Given the large amount of public money invested in these programmes, there needs to be an appropriate level of oversight and accountability. My Department's approach to protecting Exchequer funding and ensuring compliance is balanced appropriately with the supports we provide to services to enable them to continue to deliver a sustainable and high-quality service.

Pobal, as the administrator of my Department's funded childcare programmes, conducts compliance visits to childcare service providers. These visits check a service's compliance with the published rules of Exchequer-funded programmes. Results from Pobal compliance visits for the first part of the programme year 2018-2019 show a significant level of non-compliance. This needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency. In particular, many childcare services have been found to be in breach of programme rules concerning attendance records and registrations. This issue has been especially acute among services offering the community childcare subvention, CCS. Non-compliance like the type we have seen in the CCS represents a risk to Exchequer funds, as it can lead to services receiving funding in excess of their entitlements. For this reason, my Department, working with Pobal, identifies incorrect registrations and applies the relevant corrections to ensure that services receive the correct level of funding.

I recognise fully the challenges that can be faced by community services where incorrect registrations have been discovered. That is why my Department has developed a strong case management system, operated by Pobal, through which a dedicated team assists services facing challenges. This case management system provides non-financial assistance or support in the first instance and is focused on engaging those providers with an identified overclaim. Where financial difficulties or sustainability issues arise, services can access a budget that I have created to assist with these challenges and help them in transitioning in a manageable way towards sustainability. I am encouraged that the majority of services have engaged constructively with the process so far and a way forward has been found. I recommend that all other services get in contact with Pobal or their local city or county childcare committees if they need support and advice. I want to stress that expert assistance and financial support are available to those services that need it.

The existing targeted childcare schemes will be replaced later this year with the national childcare scheme, NCS, which was developed based on evidence of the best interests of children and families. Its attendance rules will reflect the reality of children and parents' lives and the need for services to operate as businesses. My Department is engaging with service providers on the development of the NCS.

Deputies will be aware that investment in childcare has increased by an unprecedented 117% in the past four budgets and now totals €575 million per year. Community services access much of this growing investment and I note that the targeted childcare supports provided under the CCS and the training and employment childcare scheme were enhanced significantly in September 2017, some by as much as 50%. The NCS will mark another significant milestone in this type of care, creating an infrastructure in which the Government continues to invest.

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has spoken in general terms about the scheme and the new one that will come on stream at the end of the year. I would be the last to suggest that the Minister should ignore an audit or not seek value for the taxpayer's money. However, it would be remiss of me not to tell her that a certain degree of common sense had be mixed into what was happening in communities at charity level. They are facing specific challenges that are different than those facing the private sector. They are trying to cope, not just with attendances, but with what is happening in the child's home. They are trying to give families support. The last thing they want is to lose a child. They want to work with the child and the family.

The audit must have a human interest element in terms of these children. A balance must be struck between auditing a book and auditing a life. That is what is going on. If everything was as rosy as the Minister said, these public meetings would not be happening and one of the projects would not be telling us that its loss-making could run to €40,000 per year due to changes being made pursuant to a Pobal audit that did not recognise the issues that would be created for families and the children attending.

SIPTU has agreed to support the staff in their efforts to get fair play for the sector and those employed therein. One man who has worked in the sector for the past 12 years has told me that he is still on the same rate but is there because he enjoys the job, likes the mix and wants to be involved in the community. I ask the Minister to go beyond her scripted reply and look deeply into the hearts of these families and young children.

Photo of Katherine ZapponeKatherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I appreciate the Deputy's response. As he knows, we always prepare a script, which is what I have shared with the House. Going beyond it, I am aware of the issues. The Deputy will appreciate that I fully understand the community not-for-profit childcare sector and its challenges, having set up a number of such services myself. Those involved the sector would not want to do anything that, while not necessarily against the rules, was contrary to the ways in which they were provided support from the Exchequer. They follow those ways faithfully because they want to be as accountable and responsible as anyone in the private sector.

I understand the Deputy's remarks about there being additional needs in the context of community not-for-profits, the provision of what families require, etc. That is why there is a strong case management programme, developed by my Department and operated by Pobal, to support those services that may have demonstrated non-compliance with clear rules on how to register children. The services are checked to see whether all those children are in attendance for the hours in question over a certain period referred to as a snapshot window. If not, moneys have been paid that should not have been. What happens next is not a case of us just going in and grabbing the money back. Rather, we have established a case management system to support services in finding a way of ensuring future compliance.

Regardless of whether there are problems regarding the sustainability of that community service, there are other supports, including those of a financial nature, available. I am concerned to hear that community or public meetings are being held; I am interested in hearing more about that from the Deputy. I am also concerned that one service has indicated that it cannot re-register 49 children and another service finds that it is €40,000 down and that it has a lack of sustainability. I understand that my Department is finding ways to support those services. To my knowledge, no service has closed on foot of the compliance procedures that have been operating. Those compliance procedures and rules, as the Deputy may be aware, are shifting and changing, and the establishment of the national childcare scheme because of the consultation we have done with the sector. I would be happy to hear more about the 40 children who cannot be re-registered and the service which, it appears, either may not be sustainable or is not receiving the support it should be.

2:50 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have already written to the Minister about this matter.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Perhaps the Minister and the Deputy could have a chat.