Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

43. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his plans to review and revise guidelines on the accountability of public servants on State boards, in particular civil servants from his Department who are members of State boards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [10675/19]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Minister have plans to review and revise the guidelines on the accountability of public servants who serve on State boards, in particular civil servants from his Department who are members of State boards? Will he explain the governance arrangements for reporting to us?

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Circular 12/2010: Protocol for Civil Servants nominated to the boards of non-commercial State bodies lays down a detailed framework for civil servants who are board members to report to the relevant Minister in certain circumstances. The relevant Minister is the Minister under whose aegis the body falls. The purpose of the protocol is to set out the reporting obligations of the nominee civil servant board member in the extreme situation where serious issues arise that are not being addressed by the board and where the chairperson of the board does not report such. Accordingly, for example, the circular provides that where there is a significant public policy issue or where there is disagreement at board level, the civil servant board member should request the chairman to notify the Minister or failing that, notify the Minister himself or herself. Moreover, the circular provides that the civil servant board member should present information directly to the relevant Minister in cases where there are serious weaknesses in controls that have not been addressed, or where there is a significant strategic or reputational risk to the body that is not being addressed, or where there are serious concerns about possible illegality or fraud. The operation of the circular is subject to the legal common law, fiduciary and statutory responsibilities of the nominee civil servant board member.

The protocol is intended to contribute to greater accountability in the non-commercial State sector by providing further guidance for civil servant nominees on the boards of non-commercial State bodies above and beyond the governance framework already prescribed for all members of State boards and set out in the code of practice for the governance of State bodies. In the normal course of events the correct line of authority is from the chairman of the board to the relevant Minister. As a general principle, the civil servant nominee board member has a responsibility to act collectively in decision-making and I am satisfied that Circular 12/2010 issued by my Department provides guidance and guidelines for civil servants nominated to the boards of non-commercial State bodies which ensures proper accountability and reporting arrangements.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think everybody in the country is completely shocked at what has happened with the cost profile for the national children’s hospital project. There has to be something deeply wrong with the arrangements the Minister has outlined if the cost overruns that have been experienced happened and nobody from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform which is charged with overseeing public expenditure to prevent a further collapse of the economy saw himself or herself as able or required, or saw it as appropriate, to tell the Minister about what was happening. Moreover, there are further revelations in today's newspapers that, in fact, the head of estates in the Health Service Executive who is on various committees dealing with the national children's hospital made it very clear as far back as last May that there were serious problems with cost overruns, yet it seems the civil servant on the board did not do anything. The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Health, who sat across from him at the Cabinet table decided he did not have to tell him. That cuts against the grain of everything that happens at budget time, not just in the context of current but also capital expenditure.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have acknowledged and will do so again that the procedures and difficulties in the latter phase of the national children's hospital project will change and have to change for the future. I have acknowledged and accept my responsibility for the difficulties with the project. In answer to the Deputy's question on whether I am happy with the way in which the civil servant on the board fulfilled his duties, the answer is yes because it is very clear that the issue needs to be raised with the line Department.

The view of my official, whom I have met to discuss this matter, is that the issue was being raised with the Department of Health. He could see this was being reported and he felt it was being dealt with. I have already outlined the changes I want to make to help to ensure the issues we have experienced with huge projects like the national children's hospital are not repeated.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nobody is suggesting that the Minister or the civil servants in his Department should micromanage every element of a project in another Department because that is what the other Department is for. Given that a world-level overrun is happening in the case of the national children's hospital in Ireland, when does common sense click in? I would have expected that a senior civil servant would discuss this matter with others so that the children's hospital project would come to fruition and the taxpayers of Ireland, and their hard-earned money, would not be taken for a complete ride. The Minister has said he is happy with the arrangements that have led to this outcome. I think that happiness is misplaced. As there are so few people in his Department, I assume everybody pretty much knows everybody. I am sure lots of cups of coffee and tea are shared. The Minister needs to give serious consideration to why no one within his very small Department thought to say to him, at the time of the budget or at some other time, that there was a serious problem with costs.

Paschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I never said I was happy with the processes that led to this outcome. I said I was satisfied with the operation of the circular. The Deputy either misinterpreted me, or she deliberately attributed words to me that I did not say. It is up to her to decide which of those possibilities is the case. I never at any point said I was happy with the processes that have led to this. I have already outlined what I am going to do to change them. Work is under way to change them. I have said that the way in which this issue developed, particularly the latter phase of it, needs to change in the future and will change. The Deputy will never acknowledge that we get the majority of projects right. We will deliver three major transport projects on time and on track this year. We will deliver major projects like primary schools and primary care centres all over this country in the way the taxpayer wants. I am not looking to minimise in any way the anger and concern caused by the national children's hospital project. I will not have words attributed to me that I did not state.