Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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52. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection the status of her response to the recent decision by Dáil Éireann to approve a Private Members' motion calling for the abolition of the JobPath programme; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [7974/19]

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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In the light of the supposedly new politics of the House and the minority status of the Government, will the Minister respond to the Government's defeat in a vote on a motion tabled by Sinn Féin? The motion called for the abolition of the JobPath programme, which is administered through Turas Nua and Seetec. Will the Minister update the House on how she intends to recognise the will of the people, which was expressly delivered by a vote in the Chamber, or is she ignoring it?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government's position on the recent motion debated in the House on the JobPath service was clearly set out in my contribution at the time. While I noted the views of the House on the matter, the position of the Government remains unchanged.

I reiterate that the JobPath service shows a performance well above target levels.  Customer feedback shows high levels of satisfaction of more than 6,000 customers who were independently surveyed and there is a low number of complaints. All this evidence has been published by the Department.  In addition, preliminary evidence from a forthcoming econometric study, which will be published in a number of weeks, indicates that JobPath participants have better job and earning outcomes than non-participants. These data contrast with the anecdotes presented by critics of the service and with the small-scale research study which has been quoted - a study so small that it is mostly unreliable. 

The Department also operates a robust inspection and compliance regime. A detailed report by the Comptroller and Auditor General found no flaws in the inspection regime. It made no recommendations in regard to how the service should be governed and instead indicated it was satisfied with it. Where any issue is brought to my attention and there is sufficient detail to pursue the matter, we do so and action is taken as necessary.  Since the debate on the Private Members' motion, Deputies have brought just two cases to my attention, both of which have been reviewed.

My Department is examining options for contracted activation services to be delivered from 2020. No final decisions have been made in this area, but lessons will be learned from recent reports on local employment services, job clubs, the EmployAbility service and the econometric review of JobPath, which is being finalised. The policy considerations will also include how we can provide activation services to those most distant from the labour market and make persons who have not availed of activation services aware of the latter's existence and allow them to interact with us.

The JobPath service has proven to be effective, it rates highly with the vast majority of participants who use the service and the Government will continue to offer the service in line with our obligations to jobseekers and our commitments to the service providers.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That says it all. The House does not matter anymore. A motion was put forward by a political party and debated for two hours but, although the Minister made a contribution of which we are all aware, ní raibh sí ag éisteacht. She was not listening. We are the Teachtaí Dála, the messenger-boys of the people. I have received countless complaints about the awful experiences of participants in the programme. I describe Turas Nua as "Turas Uafásach". An dtuigeann an tAire sin? It means "an awful journey". If the Minister has not heard complaints in her constituency, she must not be doing any clinics, or else she must not be listening to the people. Níl sí ag éisteacht. Tá a cluasa dúnta.

There are awful problems, such as people who have poor communication or literary skills being forced and coerced into visiting the programme's offices to be humiliated and degraded. The Minister stated that of the 6,000 customers surveyed, there have been few complaints, but that is not true. I cannot be receiving all the complaints, and nor can the Sinn Féin Party members who brought forward the motion.

I am alarmed that although the Minister noted she was voted down, having made her contribution, she has indicated that votes in the House do not count anymore. In that case, what counts? Is Fine Gael now so arrogant that it will not listen to the wishes and democratic decisions of the House?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have tabled a question, namely, Question No. 85, which relates to the issue. I echo Deputy Mattie McGrath's contribution that it is shocking that the Minister would ignore the democratic wishes of the majority of the House, not least given that she must make a decision on whether she will renew the contract. Will she indicate whether she intends to renew the JobPath contract for the two companies?

It has emerged that one of the companies, namely, Turas Nua, outsources to another company, namely, Working Links, which has received 50% of the money paid by the State to the entity. The latter company is in trouble, however, and has entered administration in Britain. The British chief inspector of probation ranked the company as "inadequate" and found "professional ethics [were] compromised and immutable lines crossed because of business imperatives". Does the Minister intend to re-administer the contract to the likes of this company? We already know from studies that it has a bad track record in Britain, as does Seetec. The Minister has told us that she intends to ignore the democratic will of the House and reissue the contracts.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In the Minister's contribution to the debate on the motion, she referred to the 41,000 people who have found full-time jobs and the 206,000 people who have been referred to the programme. Of the 41,000 people, however, only 11,334 were sustained in employment for 12 months or more. That is a minuscule number.

The Minister failed to answer my question when I put it to her earlier and, therefore, I reiterate it now. Is she satisfied that the figure represents value for money? Millions of taxpayers' euros have been spent on this failed programme and given to Turas Nua and Seetec, yet only 11,334 jobs have been sustained for 12 months or more. It is a simple question. Is it value for money and can she stand over those ludicrously low figures?

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I echo the concerns of my colleagues about JobPath and the number of jobs that have been produced. The Minister will be aware that in the social enterprise sector, which includes bodies that run job clubs and so on, local community projects have an impressive record. The people in charge of many of those projects, however, are worried that they will have to compete for tenders and so on against the JobPath companies and that they will be placed at a disadvantage. Given that there are organisations that are ready to do this work and have done it well in communities throughout the country, would it not be better to give them the responsibility?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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It will not come as news to Deputies that Private Members' motions are not legally binding instructions to the Government-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is not the issue.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is not the issue. The motion was a vote of the House.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One voice at a time, please. The Minister will continue without interruption.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Private Members' motions are not legally binding instructions to the Government but the set of contracts in place with Turas Nua and Seetec through JobPath are. If there were to be any changes to the existing contracts, it would cost the State millions of euros. As I previously stated in the House, the termination of the contracts or even a stepping-away from the contracts would significantly expose the State financially. Even if it did not, I am not sure that anybody in the House believes that the 200,000 people who are continually on the employment live register do not need any assistance anymore, because they do. They will continue to need assistance until there is nobody on the live register.

Deputy Bríd Smith referred to recent announcements about the awarding of certain contracts relating to the probation service in the UK and the circumstances of Working Links. I stress that my Department does not have a contract for services with Working Links-----

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Department has a contract with Turas Nua, however.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Our contract for services is with Turas Nua and it will continue to be, exactly as laid out in the contract we signed a number of years ago.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am aghast at the breathtaking arrogance of the Government. We thought we had got rid of that after the 1973-1977 coalition, with the heavy gang and the former Ministers, Mr. Paddy Donegan and Mr. Patrick Cooney-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should stick to the debate.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Stick to the debate.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We did. The Acting Chairman was around too.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath is out of order.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am not out of order.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is personal abuse.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is not personal abuse. It is fact. It happened.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not in order.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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People are bullying. It is outrageous.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should stick to the debate.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister was warned about the context of what happened in England and here, and about privatisation-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Bríd Smith for a quick question.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Can I finish? The Minister was warned about what happened with the schemes. It is nothing to snigger about.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am not sniggering at Deputy McGrath.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Government are just bully boys. People end up in hospital and mental institutions-----

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with this.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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-----because they are depressed about the treatment they are given. Respect the people on these schemes. Do not bulldoze and bully them. The Government is back to the heady days of the Blueshirts again.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is out of order.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Every time we have-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will have time to reply.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister says that Private Members' motions are not binding. We all recognise that. I tabled three Private Members' motions in the last 12 months which were all passed overwhelmingly by the Dáil. They were not all in the Minister's Department. The Government has not taken a single measure to implement any one of them.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is called new politics.

Willie O'Dea (Limerick City, Fianna Fail)
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Since this Government came into office, has it ever reflected the will of the Dáil by implementing a Private Members' motion that was tabled by the Opposition? As far as I recall, it has not. What is the point in tabling Private Members' motions if, having been debated and passed by substantial majorities, usually in the Dáil, the Government steadfastly ignores them? In old politics, the Government came in, had a majority and voted down Private Members' motions. In new politics, the Government gets defeated but just ignores Private Members' motions. In addition to Deputy Bríd Smith's question, it is a bit disingenuous to say that the Department has no direct connection or contract with the company in the UK which has gone into administration. It owns 50% of one of the companies that the Minister is dealing with. The Government has to be very careful when dealing with this organisation. This is the culmination of a long line of complaints about suspected fraud on the part of that company in the UK.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When the Minister says that it does not fall on the Government because it does not have a contract with Working Links, the fact is that Working Links is 50% owned by Turas Nua and Turas Nua has, so far, received €75.7 million of taxpayers' money to deal with unemployment, to do what was said by the academics from Waterford, to actively and capriciously patronise, cajole, threaten, manipulate and bully the unemployed. That is exactly the sort of research on the response of the public to JobPath and the companies that run it. The Minister is in real danger of recreating the national children's hospital on a small scale by saying that it does not matter what Working Links does or not, or whether it is in trouble or not. It is 50% owned by Turas Nua, which has received significant money from the State. If the Minister is telling us that she will renew the contract with it, she is putting taxpayers' money in jeopardy, never mind the statement that she cannot significantly expose the State financially by breaking contracts. What are these companies doing by exposing the State at this level?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Dáil passed a motion on this. This is supposed to be the seat of democracy in this State. Thousands of people are looking on at this debate and looked on two weeks ago when the Dáil voted on JobPath and gave a resounding answer to it. The Minister describes herself as a democrat. She should listen to the will of the people and the Chamber. For her to say that she will not listen and to disregard totally the will of the Dáil is shameful, to say the least. I will try for the fifth time to ask a simple question. The Minister comes in here and says she deals with figures, statistics and reality. Of the 41,000 full-time jobs that she says have been created, only 11,334 have been sustained in employment for 12 months or more. Does the Minister deem that to be value for money? Does she still think that is the most successful job activation scheme in the State?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I did not reply to Deputy Broughan's question in the last round about the impressive record of our Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, partners. I met with them before Christmas. We presented the INDECON report to them after Christmas, which caused some concerns. Another meeting has been arranged where we can discuss the options arising from that but they have no cause for concern and I reassured them of that. There will be tendering processes because the EU directive defines that that is how we have to spend public money. We will make sure that they are prepared and ready to be able to continue to assist the State and for continuous governance in support of the people.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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They have very good job records.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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They are superb. Apart from their record, the people in ILDN are incredibly committed to this area. They also have a special advantage in that they have access to other funds outside of the activation funds which they can apply to us for to be able to provide extra resources for people who have particular difficulty. They have access to the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP. I am completely supportive of what they do. We could not deliver our service without them. I hope my support for them is clear and resounding.

Every time Deputy Mattie McGrath stands up in this Chamber, whether to insult me or to belittle or insult anybody else-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Facts.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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-----it does the Deputy no favour whatsoever.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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One speaker.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Belittling me or making me look funny or silly-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is not funny.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I am telling the Deputy that it is not funny. It is tantamount to bullying and I will not accept it or tolerate it from Deputy Mattie McGrath any more. If he has a question to ask, if he asks it respectfully, I will respectfully reply to it.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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It is the will of the House.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Dea asked me about Turas Nua and Working Links. I do not say this blindly or unknowingly. Our contract is with Turas Nua. It will do whatever it does in the next couple of weeks but it has been in constant contact with us in the last number of weeks. We are aware of the ongoing issues with Working Links and we will continue to work with Turas Nua to provide the service which it has supplied to us for the last number of years. I am repeating myself. Without JobPath, we would not have 5.3% unemployment, having dropped from 15.7% unemployment. Deputy Brady and I will never agree on that and that is fine. I respect his views, as I respect the views of everybody in this House who shared them with me last week. My job is to honour the contractual obligations that the State has entered into with two companies in order to assist us with the 195,000 people who are unemployed. Whether Deputies have forgotten about them or not, we have not.