Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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48. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her plans to provide community employment supervisors with access to the same working entitlements as provided to public servants following the implementation of the Public Service Superannuation (Age of Retirement) Act 2018; if those who wish to continue to work will be permitted to do so; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [8176/19]

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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The Public Service Superannuation (Age of Retirement) Act 2018 allows public servants to continue to work to the age of 70 if they so choose. In other words, they can work until that age of their own volition. Given the pension situation which militates more strongly against community employment supervisors than any other sector, will the Minister change the administrative rules applying to these supervisors so that they are treated in a similar and equitable fashion and may work beyond the age of 65 if they wish to continue in their role?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The Government agreed that the compulsory retirement age of most public servants recruited before 1 April 2004 should be increased to 70 and that such additional service would continue to accrue retirement benefits, subject to the maximum of 40 years' service. This was provided for in the Public Service Superannuation (Age of Retirement) Act 2018, which passed in the House just before Christmas and which is the responsibility of my colleague the Minister for Finance and for Public Expenditure and Reform. Community employment, or CE, participants and supervisors are employees of private companies in the community and voluntary sector. My Department is not the employer of CE participants or supervisors and such employees are not public servants but are employees of the sponsoring organisations involved. They are not, therefore, subject to the changes recently introduced for public servants who can now work until they are aged 70. Funding for the employment of supervisors on community employment is available until the supervisor reaches the State pension age.

The Social Welfare and Pensions Act 2011 provided for the necessary amendments to increase the State pension age in line with the national pensions framework. It provided for an increase in the qualification age for the State pension from 66 to 67 from 2021 and a further increase to 68 years from 2028. It is open to CE supervisors to remain on CE until the working day before the birthday on which they reach State pension age as follows; 66 for those born before 1 January 1955; 67 for those born on or after 1 January 1955; and 68 for those born on or after 1 January 1961. I trust this clarifies the matter.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I know of a scheme where the supervisor is being forced to retire in April. The position has been advertised for over a month but no applicant has come forward. Can that person stay on? That is the very simple question. Community employment schemes provide essential services across the towns, villages and parishes of this country, urban and rural, and they are publicly funded. To create what I term a kind of "constructive corporate veil" between the Government and the group carrying on the service is a nonsense. This has to be broken down. It is the same thing that is going on with the pensions. It is cowboy stuff. If companies outside were doing it, we would call them cowboys. All Governments, including the one of which I was a member, have been cowboys in this regard. They have tried to fool people.

There are 44 supervisors on community employment schemes who are aged between 65 and 66 and I want to know if they can continue to work beyond that age. Can they? One cannot have one rule for one group and another rule for another group. It would require a simple administrative decision for the Minister to change this. It is the right thing to do. The Taoiseach said it was up to the employer, but the corporate veil or Chinese wall involved, whatever one calls it, is a nonsense that must stop. Community employment supervisors are employees doing valuable work but we do not treat them as valuable employees.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I know how passionately the Deputy feels about this as he has been talking about CE for many years. However, I remind him, and he was probably a Member of the House when it was established, that CE was established as a working age activation scheme. The people who are on a scheme must be of working age. I do not know the date of birth of the person the Deputy mentioned, and I am happy to take his or her details from the Deputy and look into the matter later today, but a person must retire when he or she reaches retirement age. Currently that is 66 years of age, in a number of years it will be 67 years and in 2028 it will be 68 years. That is the rule that governs the working age activation programmes for participants, assistant supervisors and supervisors in the CE programme as it currently stands.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
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I refer to the Labour Court recommendation in July 2008 on the establishment of a pension scheme funded by the Government. Yesterday, the Minister saw a responsible, sensible cohort of people who act in important positions. They are not looking for the world. Some of them said on the picket line that most would like a pension that would acknowledge their role or, at least, a decent ex gratiapayment. Those who are now long retired could certainly do with that as many of them are in very impoverished positions. Is there any way this can be resolved and what steps is the Minister taking to resolve it?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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To be honest, I do not know the answer to that question. We are actively pursuing every and any way of trying to resolve this issue without causing the contagion we know it would cause at present. To be entirely fair to the two unions that are representing the CE supervisors and assistant supervisors, they have come up with different ideas in the last few months that are just not manageable or workable. We are working together. It was sad that they had to go out on strike yesterday but perhaps that will make us redouble our efforts to find a solution. However, the solution must be found within the confines of not costing the State in excess of €600 million. If it is possible I will find a way to do that, but it is not as easy as it sounds. I will not give up. For as long as I am here I will keep trying.