Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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29. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills when talks will commence with representatives of school secretaries as recommended by the Workplace Relations Commission; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [3026/19]

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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When will talks commence with representatives of school secretaries, as recommended by the Workplace Relations Commission? There was an adjudication a number of years ago between the Department, school secretaries and their respective unions. The adjudication recommended a four-year plan and that talks commence this year. When will those talks commence?

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for this question about an issue that is close to my heart. While in opposition I highlighted the important role played by school secretaries. As somebody who worked in a secondary school, I realise the burden they are under and the important role they play. I recognise the very important work done by them and other support staff in the running of schools and I am grateful to them for the contribution they make to the education system. I have spoken to a number of school secretaries about their employment conditions.

Schemes were initiated in 1978 and 1979 for the employment of clerical officers and caretakers in schools. The schemes were withdrawn completely in 2008. They have been superseded by the more extensive capitation grant schemes. The current grant scheme was agreed to in the context of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which was published in 1991. The majority of primary and voluntary secondary schools now receive assistance to provide for secretarial, caretaking and cleaning services under the grant schemes. It is a matter for each individual school to decide how best to apply the grant funding to suit its particular needs. Where a school uses the grant funding for caretaking or secretarial purposes, staff taken on to support these functions are employees of individual schools. Specific responsibility for pay and conditions rests with the school.

On foot of a chairman's note to the Lansdowne Road agreement, my Department engaged with the unions representing school secretaries and caretakers, including through an independent arbitration process in 2015. The arbitrator recommended a cumulative pay increase of 10% between 2016 and 2019 for staff and that a minimum hourly pay rate of €13 be phased in over that period. The arbitration agreement covers the period up to 31 December 2019. It was designed to be of greatest benefit to lower paid secretaries and caretakers. For example, a secretary or caretaker who was paid the then minimum wage of €8.65 per hour in 2015 prior to the arbitration agreement will, from 1 January 2019, be paid €13 per hour, a 50% increase in that individual's hourly pay rate. Following the arbitration process, grant funding used by schools to fund the salaries of ancillary staff was improved to enable schools to implement the arbitration process outcome. My officials have advised me that the Workplace Relations Commission has not been in communication with them on this matter. If the representative organisations of the secretaries contact the Workplace Relations Commission, my officials will be a position to deal appropriately with it.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I do not understand the last point because my reading of the adjudication was that talks should commence this year. As the matter has already been adjudicated on, it is about the Minister and Fórsa agreeing to meet this year. That is what the adjudication states - that the Minister and the union should meet this year prior to the plan running out at the end of the year. When will the talks happen? The truth is that school secretaries are part of a two-tier arrangement. There are school secretaries who are on a contract from many years ago, while others in education and training board schools, particularly those in primary schools, are education and training board staff with pensionable jobs. What is happening - this is a point made forcefully by the unions - is that there are competitions for the patronage of schools, including schools in Dunshaughlin in my constituency where the education and training board is a competitor patron. If the education and training board is awarded patronage, its secretary will be paid directly from the State's resources as a State employee and have a pensionable job, but if one of the other competitors is granted patronage, the secretary in the school will not have that privilege. It is a crazy situation that must end. When will the talks start? They are mandated to take place as part of the adjudication dating from 2015.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I do not have a specific date. Communication has now been initiated between the representative organisation and the Workplace Relations Commission and my officials are happy to work with them. I will be happy if it happens sooner rather than later. I am also conscious of the fact that there have been so many anomalies in the schemes during years, including the 1978 and 1979 schemes. The scheme was not supposed to continue for as long as it did. When retirements occurred or people left their jobs, they were replaced for a period, but that stopped in 2008. We have had different provisions for school secretaries and there are anomalies. It is something of which I am very conscious and I am of the same opinion as the Deputy on the need for the conversation to start sooner rather than later because the arbitration agreement covers the period up to 31 December 2019.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, I am not looking for the Minister's opinion. I am certainly happy to work with him, but it is not necessary in this case. What is necessary is for him to make a decision. The arbitration decision states the parties should in the course of 2019 engage to consider the nature of an agreement to apply with effect from 1 January 2020. It is not unreasonable of me, therefore, to ask the Minister when the talks will begin. I do not think anybody needs to contact the Workplace Relations Commission. Contact should be made between the Department and the unions and it should happen as soon as possible. If the unions cannot get anywhere with the Minister, perhaps they might go to the Workplace Relations Commission, but the decision needs to be made as to when the Minister will decide to start talks. The matter has already been adjudicated on and it needs to happen this year.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the Deputy's insistence that the talks start straightaway, but it also requires people to talk. I met the union representative group in County Donegal two weekends ago. They were very generous in letting me know that they were going to start a campaign the following week. It only started within the past ten days and the group knows what it wants to do. I support people in sitting around a table and talking to each other, but, obviously, contact between the representative groups must be made. Tá an doras oscailt.