Dáil debates

Wednesday, 28 November 2018

Ceisteanna (Atógáil) - Questions (Resumed)

Brexit Issues

2:25 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his conversation with Prime Minister May on 5 November 2018. [46797/18]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he discussed the Good Friday Agreement with Prime Minister May when they spoke on 5 November 2018. [47122/18]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his telephone conversation with Prime Minister May on 5 November 2018. [47966/18]

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent conversation with the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May. [48020/18]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he has spoken with Prime Minister May since the draft withdrawal treaty for the UK from the EU was published. [48107/18]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he has spoken to Prime Minister May since 15 November 2018 when the Brexit secretary resigned. [48375/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 10, inclusive, together.

I spoke by phone to the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, on 5 November, when we discussed the current state of the Brexit negotiations.

We both emphasised our commitment to avoiding a hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and the need to make sure that we had a legally operable backstop.

The Prime Minister raised the possibility of a review mechanism for the backstop. I indicated an openness to consider proposals for a review, provided it was clear that the outcome of any such review could not involve a unilateral decision either by the UK or the EU to end the backstop.

I recalled the prior commitments made that the backstop must apply "unless and until" alternative arrangements were in place to supercede it. We both expressed the hope that the negotiations could conclude in a satisfactory manner as soon as possible.

I welcome the endorsement by the European Council of the agreement on the withdrawal of the UK from the European Union, and approval of the Political Declaration setting out the framework for the future relationship.

Both sets of negotiators have worked long and hard to achieve this decisive progress, with compromises on all sides. Ireland’s key objectives for this stage in the negotiations have been fully achieved.

I can confirm that the backstop arrangements in the Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland provide a guarantee that there will be no hard border on the island of Ireland. We hope that the backstop will never be used and we will work closely and continuously with our EU partners during the negotiations on the future relationship treaties that will establish the alternative arrangements.

I can also confirm that the protocol includes provisions allowing for a review of the backstop. The legal text states that the backstop will stay in place unless and until alternative arrangements can be agreed and can only be ended by the mutual agreement of both sides.

The EU and the UK have committed in the finalised withdrawal agreement to protect the Good Friday Agreement in all its parts. For the avoidance of any doubt, the protocol confirms that nothing in the agreement would prejudice the constitutional status of Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom and that the principle of consent as set out in the Good Friday Agreement is now part of a draft treaty between the UK and the EU, therefore strengthening and copper-fastening that principle of consent.

While the backstop, if invoked, envisages some different regulatory rules applying in Northern Ireland, this does not represent a threat to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland in my view. In many ways, what the Prime Minister said yesterday mirrors other policy areas where Northern Ireland has different rules from other parts of the United Kingdom.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I welcome the fact that the essentials of the Good Friday Agreement have been preserved within the withdrawal agreement. I have absolutely no doubt but that the collapse of the Executive and the Assembly was contrived nearly two years ago by Sinn Féin for political reasons. Allegedly, it was over the renewable heat initiative. We now know Sinn Féin was involved in trying to keep that extended as well. The degree of cynicism involved in that act was extraordinary. I do not accept Deputy McDonald's assertions, and I put it to the Taoiseach, that the absence of the Executive or the Assembly somehow is irrelevant to the unfolding Brexit situation. That is an absurd assertion to make. I have made those points on the importance of the Assembly and the Executive in terms of allowing the anti-Brexit majority in Northern Ireland to have a parliamentary voice and a voice at the Executive, and also to improve the dynamic in relations. Brexit has damaged relations between two communities in the North. It is polarised because of Brexit and, in my view, the absence of real politics.

When a scandal hits a government, one does not collapse it. One deals with the scandal. It is extraordinary that a renewable heat initiative scandal that has occasioned an inquiry caused the collapse of the entire edifice of Government - the Executive and the Parliament. I believe that is unparalleled in any European democracy and, in my view, unforgivable, given the gravity of Brexit, and compounded by the absence of any Brexit sentiment in Westminster where people did not get an opportunity to articulate their view.

Brexit is about damage limitation. We know Brexit will be bad. Events may unfold differently in the Westminster Parliament. We are now in the realm of speculation here as to what will occur there. I note the Taoiseach said last week that no Government could be prepared for a no-deal scenario. Can he assure us that the Government has a plan and is preparing diligently for a no-deal scenario even though nobody wants that and we will do everything we possibly can to avoid it?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When the inquiry reports back on the renewable heat initiative, RHI, scandal, I believe it will record the central role of the DUP. At that stage, the Taoiseach can make his assessment on an informed basis as regards Sinn Féin. What he is doing at this point is simply playing party politics. He says he wishes, in an even-handed manner, with rigorous impartiality - that is what both Governments are committed to in the Good Friday Agreement - to ensure the restoration of the institutions of Government, yet at every opportunity, in a very partisan and partial way, the Taoiseach chooses to attack Sinn Féin and to attack me. That is the Taoiseach's business, and it might be the party political acoustic of this Chamber, but it is a far cry from adopting a posture of rigorous impartiality.

To respond to Deputy Martin, I have not advanced any absurdities. Unlike his party or the Taoiseach's party, we actually represent people in the North of Ireland. We have a democratic mandate from them. We live and work within the communities in question so I know full well the necessity and the value of good government and sustainable power sharing. However, I am also saying to him that he is in cloud cuckoo land if he thinks there could be an agreed all-of-Executive position on Brexit with the stance that has been taken by the DUP. He is even further in the realms of fantasy and wishful thinking if he imagines for one second that Ireland, or any representatives from Ireland, will be the decisive factor in the shape of Brexit, or Scotland for that matter. That is not a real possibility. As I have said previously, the withdrawal agreement is the least worst outcome. In his bid to sooth unionists' nerves, I ask the Taoiseach to reassure the Dáil that he will not give any succour to the position advanced by Arlene Foster that the backstop should be ditched. I would like him to make that clear this afternoon.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I think what I said in the Dáil yesterday or previously is that no Government can be fully prepared for a no-deal Brexit, not us, the UK, France, the Netherlands, Belgium or anywhere. However, we will be as prepared as we can be and that involves the hiring of Revenue and customs officials, which is very much under way, for our ports and airports. It involves the hiring of veterinary officials, and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine is confident it can do that. It requires significant infrastructure at Dublin Port, Dublin Airport and Rosslare. Those works are under way, and the OPW is leading on those in conjunction with the port companies and the Dublin Airport Authority. Also, the European Commission is working on its no-deal contingency plans, many of which have been published, and notices have been issued with regard to what will be done in the case of citizens' rights, aviation and so on.

I do not believe a no-deal scenario is likely. This deal can and should be ratified, but it has to include the backstop. There can be no doubt about that. That is a view of the European Union also.

On soothing unionists' fears, I am not trying to sooth but I am trying to understand and listen. Even if one does not agree with somebody, understanding where they are coming from is of benefit. Listening is a benefit as well. When I met with the Grand Master of the Orange Order, Mervyn Gibson, and some Orangemen from the Border counties on Monday, he told me that when I used the term "precious union" in this Chamber last week it was picked up in Northern Ireland, and perhaps in the UK, as me being in some way being snide or sarcastic. That was not my intention whatsoever. When I used the term "precious union" in this Chamber, I did so quoting Arlene Foster because she often refers to the precious union. I quoted it in an attempt to demonstrate that I understand how precious the union is to unionists and how important their British identity is to them.

I said it and quoted it in an attempt to demonstrate that I was listening and that I understood that unionists regard the union to be precious. I did not mean it in any way to cause offence or sound sarcastic or snide, as I am happy to clarify.

2:35 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I also have the view that we will not reach a no deal scenario, although there will be many difficult hurdles between now and 30 March. Notwithstanding that there may be a series of votes in Westminster, it could take a number of directions, namely, anything from a British general election or a referendum to a second vote or a series of votes that gives a different result, but that is in the realm of speculation. It is extremely important to prepare properly. To date, the Dutch Government, for example, has been further ahead than us and hired 1,000 customs officers. There is a significant issue with our level of preparation across the board, including in enterprise. The number of companies that describe themselves as not ready for Brexit in surveys such as Bord Bia's and others' is a concern.

On unionism, I recall the Taoiseach's comments last week and I think he was attempting to educate me about the unionist mind. I have talked with unionists for more than 30 years, on many occasions off the record, and in my capacity as Minister for Foreign Affairs I managed to co-chair the discussions that resulted in the devolution of justice, which was the final act of the St. Andrews and Good Friday Agreements and which brought the administration of justice to a devolved setting in Northern Ireland. I respect unionists' opinions, although I fundamentally disagree with them on their attitude to the withdrawal agreement because it gives Northern Ireland the best of both worlds economically. It is a monumental failure on all sides that we are in this situation.

When one compares all the complex decisions, such as decommissioning, that were taken to get the Good Friday Agreement over the line with the kinds of issues that are preventing a Government in Northern Ireland, the current issues bear no resemblance to the real issues of substance that had to be overcome to achieve the Good Friday Agreement, the devolution of justice and so on. It reflects a monumental failure. I do not live in cloud-cuckoo-land. I have given much time and effort to Northern Ireland over many decades to try to understand it, coming from the republican background that I do. I have worked well with unionists, people from the nationalist and republican communities and public representatives on all sides. Irrespective of one's perspective, it is careless in the extreme to allow the institutions of government collapse because of a renewable heating scheme. That is beyond the beyond.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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When the institutions collapsed, public confidence in them was at rock bottom. They collapsed because of a perception of corruption and malpractice. The Deputy might struggle with the notion that public opinion reacts adversely to corruption and bad practice, but that is how it happened. If one cares to go and listen widely, people will say with clarity that they did not want a situation where the DUP, which had never signed up to the Good Friday Agreement, was not working in the power-sharing agreement. The Deputy may say the big issue is decommissioning or policing, but many of the people whom he frequently derides and about whom he is extremely snide and sarcastic were instrumental in building that politics with others.

A whole generation of nationalists and, beyond that, progressives in the North will not wait for rights. If that upsets the Deputy or the Taoiseach, sin é. I accept that when the Taoiseach spoke of the "precious union" he was not being snide or sarcastic. If it is any consolation to our unionist friends, the snide and sarcastic commentary in this Chamber is directed towards nationalists, be they Sinn Féin or other Northern nationalists, who do not see the world through the same prism as Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Nationalists have lived and continue to live a different reality, their view point is not respected and their democratic mandate is consistently questioned by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael.

I partly agree with the Taoiseach about preparation for a crash Brexit because it is unknown and uncharted territory. I accept he has obligations but I urge him to be careful and avoid talking up the prospect of a crash or a no deal scenario. It is not in anyone's interest and he should not rise to that bait.

As I said to Mrs. May yesterday evening, if unionists think that a crash is what will save their precious union, and that hardening the Border will resolve the matter, they are foolish because there cannot be a hard border on our island. We are all ad idemon that. While we will respectfully listen and understand, it must be understood that the interests of the whole island will be protected by all of us, not least by the Taoiseach as head of Government.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The interests of the whole island will be protected. I am sincere about that and I mean it. No matter what happens, we will look at this from an all-island perspective and not just from the vantage of this State.

I recognise and largely concur with some of Deputy Micheál Martin's comments. The architects of the Good Friday Agreement, many of whom, including the former Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, were from the Deputy's party, as well as others such as Tony Blair, John Hume, David Trimble and Deputy Adams, overcame such considerable obstacles in securing a ceasefire, securing British troop withdrawals from Northern Ireland, securing decommissioning, gaining acceptance for power-sharing across Northern Ireland, in which many people did not believe at one stage, and gaining acceptance of the principle of consent, that 20 years ago must have seemed too great to overcome. They were overcome, however, which is why it behoves those who are now in office, such as me, Prime Minister May and people who hold influence in Northern Ireland and here, not to be found wanting or fall short of the high standards that were set by those people 20 years ago.

Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.

Sitting suspended at 2.47 p.m. and resumed at 3.47 p.m.