Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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37. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills the status of investigations undertaken by his Department of the role of clerks of work, project managers, architects, designers, engineers and other professionals in both fire safety issues and structural issues identified at schools completed since 2006; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49724/18]

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to ask the Minister about the Western Building Systems, WBS, debacle. I would like to know the status of the investigation his Department has undertaken of all its advisers, and obviously its investigation into WBS. I said to the Minister in a private meeting that everybody should be taken to the cleaners, including the builders, if that is the legal advice the Minister has received. The Minister launched an investigation as he said he would. Schools do not know what is happening at the moment. The Minister has gone a little beyond the original timetable for all this.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy is aware, over the course of the mid-term break my Department undertook structural assessments on all 42 school buildings constructed by Western Building Systems since 2003, following the identification of significant structural issues at Ardgillan community college in Balbriggan during an assessment undertaken by a structural engineer at the school on 19 October.  The safety of school students and staff has been and will continue to be my Department's overriding priority.

I would like to acknowledge the impact this has had on students, parents, school principals, staff, patrons and boards of management of all 42 schools, in particular the 23 schools where precautionary measures where carried out. I would also like to thank all concerned for their patience and understanding over the last several weeks.

My Department will now be moving as quickly as possible to the next phase, which is to initiate more detailed structural investigations at the 42 schools and, following on from this, to implement the permanent remediation works required.  The Department fully intends to pursue the company through all contractual and legal channels for the cost of the precautionary measures and the remediation work.

It is also my intention to initiate an independent review of the Department’s design and build programme, including aspects such as procurement, quality control, workmanship and oversight, both before and after implementation of the amended building control regulations in 2014.  This will also involve the role and responsibilities of clerks of works, project managers, architects, designers and other professionals.  This will be an independent review conducted by a person or entity outside the Department and will be informed by the more detailed structural investigations to be carried out in the next phase of the programme.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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First of all we want to know about that independent reviewer. Will this individual, whoever he or she is, have the statutory powers to get to the nub of the issue? If one takes a case to the High Court, powers of compellability, evidence discovery etc. can be utilised. In the first instance anyone who is responsible needs to be brought to court, but in the second instance the Department must carry out a review with strong powers.

One of the aspects of this case that caused some concern was that the project management firm KSN Project Management, KSNPM, was originally involved in quite a number of the projects as a project manager for the Department. It was then involved in advising the Department over recent weeks. Has it raised any concerns for the Minister that KSNPM was involved? Maybe they are excellent people. They probably are. However, the firm was there at the start and it is still advising the Department. It is giving some people the perception of a possible conflict of interest. Did this cause any concern on the part of the Minister?

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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In regard to statutory powers, we are working with the Office of the Chief State Solicitor on how we can begin a review and what powers it will be given. I will keep the Deputy up to date on that.

In regard to the current situation, last week I was in Tyrrelstown along with the Taoiseach. We met representatives from KSNPM who have been working through this. We met with members of the board of management and the principals of both schools in Tyrrelstown. We are still trying to get the first and second floors into a fit state for the students to come back in the next two to three weeks. That is the focus.

In regard to KSNPM's involvement, at no point in this process was the firm involved in any certification of compliance. The responsibility at all times, on any project before or since the 2014 legislation, is with the contractor, the builder, the architects and the design team. At no time was KSNPM involved in any certification of compliance. Second, KSNPM's knowledge of the buildings was very helpful during the process that took place over the Hallowe'en break when we were under pressure to get work done in a very speedy way. My first personal contact with KSNPM was last week. I met a few of the firm's officials and I would like to acknowledge all the work they did over the last several weeks.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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None of this absolves a builder of the responsibility for building bad buildings if that is the ultimate outcome, and clearly it is. Information can be given to people for various reasons. One piece of information I have discovered is that of the 42 schools, 13 were originally project-managed by KSNPM and 27 were project-managed by another company, which I understand was Turner & Townsend. I understand that of the 13 originally project-managed by KSNPM, 12 passed the recent audit and one failed. Of the 27 that were originally project-managed by Turner & Townsend but examined this time by KSNPM and the Department's other advisers, 20 failed and seven passed. I do not know if the Minister can confirm that information. Does it cause the Minister, his advisers or his officials any concern if it is correct? The builder is ultimately responsible for this, but we want to make sure the Minister is satisfied that there are no issues or conflicts and that he has the best possible advice.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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We are going to undertake a review immediately. It has to happen quickly. That review will be independent. We are going to look at every aspect, including KSNPM, Turner & Townsend, the contractor and the Department's own clerks of works, which since 2017 have been appointed on every site.

Second, it is important to put on record that we have set up an independent unit within the building unit in Tullamore. We now have dedicated officials working on this issue to take it through the independent review and to do everything to make sure that the remediation and precautionary work is paid for. A lot of scaffolding and fencing was required. Some of it was imported at short notice. At the three school campuses at Ashbourne, for example, 3 km of fencing went up over a weekend. That costs money, and the taxpayer will want to know who has paid for anything that costs money. My officials are determined to look at culpability and accountability and follow the people who put children's lives at risk.