Dáil debates

Tuesday, 20 November 2018

Ceisteanna - Questions

Programme for Government Implementation

4:30 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if A Programme for Partnership Government progress report will be published in December 2018. [42203/18]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach when the next progress report on A Programme for Partnership Government will be published. [44887/18]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if A Programme for Partnership Government progress report will be published in December 2018. [45824/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 7, inclusive, together.

A Programme for a Partnership Government was agreed in May 2016 during the formation of the Government. It is a five-year programme of work being undertaken for the duration of the present Dáil.

The Government publishes an annual report each year, the second of which was approved by the Cabinet in May 2018 and is published on my Department's website.

I expect the next report to be published in May 2019. This report will reflect the significant work undertaken by all Departments to deliver progress across a wide range of issues, including housing and homelessness, education, health and rural development.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Although the Government last weekend seemed more interested in needling Fianna Fáil about renewing the confidence and supply arrangements that support the Government, it is important at this juncture for the Taoiseach to set out, as committed to, what in the programme for Government has been achieved, especially in the areas of housing and health. The programme pledges to "reduce the percentage of patients waiting longer than six hours in emergency departments from 32% currently to less than 7% by 2021, and reduce average Patient Experience Times for patients attending emergency departments and average waiting times for appointments, procedures and diagnostic tests across the health service". I do not have time to go into all the details of each of these sections, but in every single case we are going backwards, not forwards. I now deal with cases in which people get appointments in the south east four years hence. I raise these cases with the Department constantly. Even getting accurate information from the Department and the HSE is becoming increasingly difficult. Reports we now get from various sources claim that hospitals are being instructed to cancel elective surgeries to bring down waiting lists to make people believe that the waiting list problem is being resolved.

I will ask the Taoiseach a very direct question which should have a very direct answer. Is there an instruction to hospitals emanating from Government - from the Department of Health, the Taoiseach's Department or any other Department - to reduce waiting times and hospital trolley figures by cancelling elective surgeries? Is this or is this not a fact?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The obvious question to ask is whether or not this current Dáil will still be here come May 2019. Whereas the toing and froing - it seems to me like a sham battle between Fine Gael and its partners in government, Fianna Fáil - might be depicted as a matter for themselves, it has implications for the entirety of the Dáil and, more importantly, for policy delivery and for the people who elect us. I have no doubt that the Government's progress report, should it arrive in May of next year, will reflect that the housing and health chaos and crises continue. Of course, if the Taoiseach were thoughtful about these matters, he might take a few steps back and figure out that this is because the policies the Government is pursuing are simply the wrong ones.

I hope the progress report in May 2019 will not reflect the current state of play, which is that one of the measures in the programme for Government that I actually support, namely, the commitment to recognise the state of Palestine, still has not been met. This is despite the fact that, as the Taoiseach knows, in 2014, a Sinn Féin motion was passed in the House in which we resolved that such recognition would be delivered. The Seanad, I should add, likewise passed such a motion. Here we are, however, in a state of splendid inertia on the part of the Taoiseach's Government and nothing has happened. I did hear the Tánaiste a number of weeks ago float the notion of Middle East peace talks here in Ireland, possibly in January. As the Taoiseach knows, Israel has boycotted previous attempts such as these, but he might enlighten us as to the current state of play in this regard. Whether the Government is ever serious at all about recognition of the state of Palestine or whether it will remain in its state of splendid inertia remains to be seen. In this regard the Taoiseach might let us know if the confidence and supply agreement between Deputies Martin and Varadkar will remain in place.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Boyd Barrett. I remind the House that we have six minutes in total to deal with two questions.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I wish to take the Taoiseach back to what was a fairly disappointing response to the Stardust families earlier and what I feel is a bit of a buck-passing exercise on his part when one considers the programme for Government and what it says about what the Government would do about the Stardust tragedy. It stated, "Full regard will be had to any new evidence which emerges which would be likely to definitely establish the cause of the fire at Stardust". The reason the Stardust families have had to go to the lengths of collecting 48,000 postcards appealing to the Attorney General is that the Taoiseach's Government has failed on this promise in the programme for Government to have regard to evidence that has been provided and gathered by the families. Thirty-seven years on, they are still fighting and are now having to go to the Attorney General because the Taoiseach's Government failed on a promise to take into account evidence gathered by them which suggests that the real cause of the fire was completely different from the causes claimed in the official reports. This evidence has been provided and I do not understand why the Government will not look at it, acknowledge it and give the families what they are asking for, which is an independent commission of investigation into the real causes of the fire so they can finally get truth and justice.

Will the Taoiseach not pass the buck but rather answer the families. Why has this not been done? A desktop report by Pat McCartan was not what they asked for. It did not look seriously at the new evidence they had provided, evidence that is staring the Government in the face, about the fire having started earlier in the roof space, eyewitness reports, maps of the Stardust building used in the original inquiries that were completely inaccurate and many other things I do not have time to mention. This evidence has been provided. Why will the Government not look at it and give the families the commission of investigation they have asked for?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to pick up on another strand of the work of the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, in respect of the programme for Government. The fight against climate change was relegated by the previous Government and there has been little more than lip service since. When Commissioner Phil Hogan was a Minister, he led the charge when Fine Gael came out of the 2011 election and climate change policy went backwards. I was interested to hear yesterday on the "Six One" news the Minister, Deputy Bruton, say he will announce an action plan for climate change. This is very worrying because we all know that when the Government says it will have an action plan for something, it means more claims of action rather than any reality of action. What the Taoiseach said earlier is extraordinary. He said we will not make our 2020 targets but will make our targets for 2030. He is getting fairly benign media treatment on this issue because it is an extraordinary story of failure. I understand there was a memo before Cabinet this morning about the purchase of carbon allowances. They will cost somewhere between €96 million and €500 million, perhaps on the lower end of that scale - I do not know. Perhaps the Taoiseach could enlighten the House as to how much it will cost the State to pay fines to buy carbon credits in order that we can make some effort to meet our targets for 2020.

The Taoiseach is in a position to outline how much he thinks can be afforded in tax giveaways for the next five years, so surely he or the Government has some idea as to how much it will cost to purchase carbon credits or pay the fines we may face as a result of our failure to meet our climate change targets by 2020. That failure is dramatic. Instead of going downwards, our carbon emissions are going upwards in every sector, from transport right across. This represents a monumental failure on the Government's part. It is not good enough to state we will get there by 2030. That is 12 years away, when it will be the next generation's issue.

4:40 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach will retire in 12 years.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Howlin for that insight. It is an enormous failure and I would like an explanation from the Taoiseach. Above all, will he give some specific information on the costs that will be attached to this failure?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It may be unfair but I ask the Taoiseach to make the best of two minutes.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We should give him more time.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will do my best, as always.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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How many minutes do we have left?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have 13 minutes left.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We should give the Taoiseach more time.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It always takes longer to answer a question than to ask one, as I am sure Deputies appreciate. The progress report on the programme for Government was published over the summer. We do them every six months now, so I imagine we will have another one soon enough.

On climate change, I am a little disappointed by Deputy Martin's attack on the former Minister, Commissioner Phil Hogan. It is unfair because Mr. Hogan ceased to be the Minister responsible for climate action in 2014. That position was held by Deputy Alan Kelly thereafter.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He went against the Green Party and everybody at the time.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not think we should forget-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I remember well the line he took.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Deputies to focus.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----who held the climate action and housing Departments up until three years ago. The only reason I mentioned 2030 was that is the next date for targets. It is not that there are 2022, 2023 or 2026 targets. That is the way this is done. I am determined, in reaching our 2030 targets, that we are on the trajectory to do that right away. That is what I mean by that. It is not possible to reach 2030 targets next year but we can be on the trajectory to reach them by 2030 and that is where I want and expect us to be.

Deputy Martin is a bit cynical about action plans. Let us not forget that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, introduced the Government's first action plan, the Action Plan for Jobs, when he was the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. That action plan was to create 100,000 jobs and we actually created 200,000 jobs.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government did not create any jobs.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We can see from figures released by the Central Statistics Office today that nearly 2.3 million people are working in Ireland now. That is more than ever before. We more than exceeded the targets we set for ourselves in the Action Plan for Jobs.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have had a couple of plans.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Bruton, also achieved some positive outcomes when he was the Minister for Education and Skills, as is clear when one goes through the details of the Action Plan for Education. When I hear the Minister talking about an action plan for climate change I am enthused and reassured that we will get there because I know we got there when it came to the Action Plan for Jobs and the Action Plan for Education.

I will now address Deputy Howlin's comments.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Taoiseach give me the details I sought on costs?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have them with me.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about the cost of carbon credits?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have those numbers with me but-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They were presented to Cabinet this morning.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I do not remember them.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not buy that. The Taoiseach must know them.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Time is running out and we are moving on.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. There were 28 memorandums before Cabinet this morning and I do not remember everything that was in them. I am sure we can provide the numbers.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach must know them.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Time is running out.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There was a range of between €98 million to €500 million, but the figure is at the lower end. I honestly do not know the exact figures.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I ask him to confirm that figure.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am not entirely sure. There are two sets of figures. There is one for-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Will the Taoiseach answer the other questions?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am not quite sure what Deputy Howlin was talking about when he referred to people spending more than six months in accident and emergency departments. I think he may have been mixing up patient experience times in accident and emergency departments and waiting times and waiting lists for people who are waiting for an operation or a special appointment. Those figures are collated independently by the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF. The numbers of people waiting for hip, cataract, eye, knee and similar operations as well as angiograms and similar types of procedures have been falling for well over a year.

The figures I tend to look at are for those waiting for more than three months. There will always be tens of thousands of people waiting for a procedure for four, six or eight weeks. That is also the case for people who go private and it is certainly the case in any public health service across the world. For this reason, the figure I tend to look at is for those waiting more than three months. That figure has gone down from more than 60,000 in July 2017 to about 48,000 now. I may not be 100% accurate because I do not have the figures in front of me. We know, however, that the average waiting time for those operations and procedures is now less than six months. Much progress is being made in respect of operations and procedures.

To answer the Deputy's question, there is a long-standing protocol in the health service that when emergency department overcrowding reaches a certain point elective operations and procedures are cancelled or not scheduled in the first place. This is often the case during the busiest period.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is there any direct communication from Government on that?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There definitely was when the Deputy and I were both in government.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am talking about now.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That has not been the case, that I am aware of, for the past three years but I remember when Deputy Howlin and I were in government together that such a direction was made and it was policy. While I am not aware of it being issued in the last three years, I doubt it would have to be renewed as it has been in place for a very long time.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We must move on.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Can we get responses to the other questions?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point in making an agreement and then not abiding by it.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On outpatients, unfortunately we are not making the same kind of progress. The number of people waiting more than three months to see a specialist is now more than 350,000. However, the number of missed appointments is 500,000. The slots are available but they are not being filled. I know it is not as simple as that but this demonstrates the efficiency problem we have in managing the waiting lists. We need to do a big job on that and we will give the NTPF the job of centrally managing waiting lists into the future. It has done a good job on operations and procedures, on which I outlined the figures, through a combination of outsourcing and insourcing. People forget that the NTPF now acts as a commissioning agent and pays public hospitals to do much of this work, often on Saturdays and during the evening time.

On recognising Palestine, the programme for Government position is that we support the recognition of Palestine as an independent state but we will do that in the context of there being a two-state solution. Unfortunately, that is not yet the case. We stand together with our western European partners in believing that is the best context in which to recognise Palestinian statehood. Sweden acted unilaterally and decided to recognise Palestine on its own, as it is absolutely entitled to do. Other western European countries have decided that we should do that in the context of there being a two-state solution, which is not yet the case. It would be more powerful for western European countries to do this together rather than individual countries doing it on their own.

On the question on the Stardust fire and the programme for Government, as I mentioned, the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, secured a commitment in the programme for Government that this matter would be examined. A former judge and Member of this House - I do not know him personally but I know he is held in high esteem by the vast majority of Members - was given that work to do. He examined the matter and the evidence presented and issued his report. He took the view that the evidence presented was not sufficient to warrant further inquiries. There is now a request for a new inquest. I explained earlier in the House the procedures as to how that could happen. That is a decision for the Attorney General acting independently of Government.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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He did not talk to witnesses.