Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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In recent years the Tidy Towns has put in Trojan work in making villages and, indeed, Ireland look a better place, especially for tourists. I know more people are back at work throughout the country, which is welcome. We have to bear in mind, however, that those communities voluntarily put in a massive effort, week in, week out, to keep their village or town in pristine condition. The aid of community employment, Tús and the rural social scheme has brought great benefits in regard to making all of those villages look better through the work that is done, and Ireland would not look as good if this work were not done. Unfortunately, in the past year, while it is a sign that more people are getting work, which we appreciate, some schemes now have to pay people to cut the grass and do other jobs, which they do not have the money for, as the Minister of State will know, given where he is from.

I spoke to the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, before Christmas and she told me the Department would consider various measures. I know that people can go on Tús or a CE scheme through Seetec, but we need to look outside that. We need to make sure that if there is no replacement for a person, that person is left in place until the replacement is found. Otherwise, a village will be left without help. In addition, we should make a call and let people over 55 continue. If I get a job somewhere, I will go to it, but people should be given the opportunity to stay on a scheme because there are villages which are struggling at the moment to keep on top of things, whether painting, cleaning or cutting grass. Despite the great voluntary efforts these communities have made, from Donegal right down to the Minister of State's area, and from Dublin to Connemara, this is being undermined due to what is happening.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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At the moment there are 350 unfilled vacancies in the rural social scheme, 4,850 in the community employment scheme and 1,849 in the Tús scheme. It is not that there are not people who want to go on the schemes. It is that the rules, particularly in regard to Tús and CE, are ridiculously strict. I could never get my head around the logic of why we prefer to pay people on condition they do not work but seek work, rather than pay them on condition that they do work. The reality is that the difference between a Tús worker and somebody getting jobseeker's allowance is about €5,000 a year, which is quite small. The Minister of State might say €5,000 is a lot but if we take the 2,000 Tús vacancies and multiply that by €5,000, it gives us €10 million a year. To the Minister of State and me, that is a lot of money, but when we take it that the budget of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is €20 billion, then €10 million out of €20 billion is the equivalent of €10 out of €20,000, and we would not think spending that was big expenditure. If we spent just that much, we would say we have not spent any of it yet.

How can the Minister of State deal with this issue practically? He could say that where there are Tús vacancies that cannot be filled by eligible people, those who are on the scheme could stay for a second or third year on the Tús scheme. It is as simple as that to resolve this and fill all the places.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank both Deputies for raising this issue and giving me an opportunity to address the House on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty. Work schemes such as Tús and community employment schemes are positive initiatives that enable the long-term unemployed to make a contribution to their communities while upskilling themselves for prospective future employment.

The rural social scheme, RSS, provides farmers and fishermen with income support, while they also make a contribution to their community. Tús and the rural social scheme are delivered and managed at local level through the network of local development companies and Udarás na Gaeltachta, known as the implementing bodies, each of which has been awarded a specific quota of Tús and RSS participants based on the ability to source suitable placements. Community employment schemes are typically sponsored by groups, known as sponsors, wishing to benefit the local community. The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection agrees participant numbers annually with each community employment sponsor organisation which, in turn, is responsible for the recruitment of participants and identifying suitable work placements. The current number on the live register is comparable with the figure in May 2008. The average number of participants supported in 2008 was 25,351, composed of 22,785 under the community employment scheme and 2,566 under the rural social scheme, whereas participants did not commence under the Tús initiative until 2011. There are 38,152 places available under these initiatives, of which 26,542 are under the community employment scheme, 3,350 are under the rural social scheme and 8,260 are under Tús.

In the context of economic recovery, the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection undertook a review of all work programmes in 2016. Arising from the review, the Government agreed to implement changes to the qualifying conditions for Tús, the rural social scheme and the community employment scheme in order to broaden access for a wider range of people. Since 1 June, the Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, has also been facilitating persons to take up a placement under the community employment scheme or Tús while also attending their JobPath providers.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection has examined expenditure on the work schemes to ensure we will continue to deliver best value for the taxpayer and ensure the best use is being made of funding in this area. In that context, a decision was made to reduce the overall number of places under Tús to 6,500. The Department has engaged with the Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, which is the representative body for the Tús implementation bodies, and individually with each such body to seek to implement the reduction in participant numbers from 8,260 to 6,500 before year end.

As the Deputies are aware, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has taken the lead in addressing the entitlement of community employment scheme supervisors to occupational pensions. A community sector high level forum, chaired by the Department, is examining the issue. Other Departments, including the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, are represented on the group, as are the unions and Pobal. The group has held a number of meetings. Community employment scheme supervisors are employees of private companies in the community and voluntary sector which receive public funding. They are not employees of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection or public servants and, as such, were not subject to pay reductions under the provisions of the FEMPI legislation which only applied to public servants. A detailed scoping exercise was carried out with an input from the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, on the potential cost of providing Exchequer support for the establishment of a pension scheme for employees across the community and voluntary sector. The exercise clearly illustrated that this matter presented very significant issues for the Exchequer, with a potential cost to the State of €188 million per annum in respect of funding to enable an employer pension contribution in State funded community and voluntary organisations. That sum excludes provision for immediate ex gratialump sum pension payments as sought, which could, depending on the size of the sector involved, entail a further Exchequer cost of up to €318 million.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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With all due respect, whoever wrote that reply did not even look at what we were talking about. We are talking about small villages and towns. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív provided the Minister of State with statistics for the numbers of positions which remain unfilled nationally. We are not worried about all of the things that civil servant, or whoever it was, wrote that long palaver. We are talking about ordinary people from County Donegal to County Cork and from Connemara to Dublin who are trying to keep villages in shape and cannot fill positions. The Minister of State should tell the civil servant concerned that they cannot fill the positions, yet he or she has given us a palaver on a piece of paper about everything bar what we want to know. We need solutions. We need to put people in a position where they can stay in a job, particularly if they are over 55 years of age. As Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív pointed out, it is worth €5,000 extra a year. What is the value to tourism of what the people in question have done throughout the country in every small village and town? That is what we need to address, not the rigmarole in the reply.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps in his second reply the Minister of State might tell us how many are in receipt of long-term jobseeker's allowance. In other words, how many have been in receipt of the allowance for more than one year? The longer someone is on the allowance, the less likely it is he or she will ever find employment on a sustainable basis.

The second issue which has been totally ignored is that the older one gets, the more difficult it becomes to find commercial employment. I suggest two changes. Rather than cut the Tús scheme which is totally regressive, once someone is over 50 years of age, he or she should be able to stay on the scheme for as long as he or she wants. Second, everybody, no matter what age he or she is, should be offered a second year on the Tús scheme or the community employment scheme where there is no one else to take his or her place. The reason the scheme was transferred from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection to the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation was that the latter was living in cloud cuckoo land where everyone in the country was going to find a commercial job. The Minister of State tells us there is full employment, but there are 100,000 people signing on. The reality is that there are people who will never find commercial employment. It is time the State faced up to this and politicians took charge of the issue and said the people in question would be better off working than idle.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I say to Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice that pensions are mentioned in the Topical Issue as set down, although I appreciate that neither Deputy has raised the issue. However, it was mentioned in the Topical Issue as set down in which the Deputies sought to discuss filling all available places on the rural social scheme, Tús and community employment schemes, as well as the provision of a pension scheme for supervisors. As such, a specific reference was included to pensions, to be fair to the civil servant who drafted the reply. I appreciate that neither Deputy has raised the issue, but, to be fair, that is hardly the fault of the civil servant.

I do not have the figure sought by Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív. He asked me for-----

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Minister of State guess how many are long-term unemployed?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am not taking part in a quiz show and will not make a guess.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it 100,000?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please allow the Minister of State to speak, without interruption.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have the figure to hand and Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív will appreciate that it is not available in my Department. I will not engage in a guessing game on an issue on which I am not sure-footed, but I take the point the Deputy is trying to make. As Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice acknowledged, I also operate in a rural constituency and I am very familiar with the frustration felt by people at these schemes. There are many people who would like them to be extended in order that they could spend more than one year participating in them. There are also a lot of people in the over-55 year age cohort. I agree with the Deputies that I would like to see an extension in that regard. The Department is reviewing the schemes which were designed for another time, as acknowledged by successive Governments. Thankfully, we are in a different era economically and in terms of job creation, but I take the point that there are many who will not enter the workplace. That is a fact of life which is acknowledged and accepted. I will take the Deputies' suggestions to the Minister and her officials to ensure the points will be adequately reflected on in the Department.