Dáil debates

Tuesday, 12 December 2017

Other Questions

Defence Forces Expenditure

5:05 pm

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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50. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence if, in the event that Ireland becomes a signatory to the permanent structured co-operation framework, PESCO, a request from his Department for an increased budget will be necessary to fund the increase in defence spending envisaged by the mechanism and the associated European Defence Fund. [52736/17]

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am pleased to inform the House that yesterday, at the Foreign Affairs Council meeting in Brussels, Ireland joined the other 24 EU partners in collectively launching PESCO. Joining PESCO does not involve an additional cost to the Exchequer. Additional costs may arise in respect of participation in specific PESCO projects similar to the case where the Defence Forces participate in European Defence Agency projects. As the projects will relate to the ongoing development of Defence Forces capabilities for peace support and crisis management operations, such costs would be incurred in the normal course and will therefore be met from within the Defence Vote.

The Deputy will be aware that the allocations for defence announced in the budget means that Ireland’s total defence expenditure will increase in real terms over the coming three years. It is also expected that sharing the costs of capability development across a number of member states should provide for greater economies of scale in terms of overall defence investment expenditure.

PESCO has been presented to the Council by means of a notification. This notification clearly states that it does not prejudice the security and defence policy of the member states. The notification also states that the member states remain sovereign and that the commitments will be implemented fully in accordance with the treaty, its protocols and the constitutional provisions of the member states. As such the budgetary process and role of Oireachtas in determining the Defence Vote remains untouched.

The European Defence Fund, EDF, and PESCO are separate but complementary initiatives. The EDF will be funded from the EU budget and will not therefore impact on the Defence Vote. The EDF aims to co-ordinate, supplement and amplify national investments in defence.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

By pooling resources, it is proposed that individual member states can achieve greater output and develop defence technology and equipment that may not be feasible on their own. The fund will also foster innovation and promote a more efficient market within the defence sector, eliminating duplication and fostering greater competitiveness.

Ireland has strongly supported the continued development of the capacity of the EU to contribute to international peace and security through the deployment of capabilities on peace support and crisis management operations under the common security and defence policy, CSDP. Both PESCO and the EDF will enhance and contribute to that EU capacity.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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There is a contradiction in the Minister of State's answer. On the one hand, he states the budget will not increase but then he states it will be increasing anyway and it will be covered as part of that. It is a simple fact that the notification to which we signed up last week, thanks to Fine Gael and its friends in the Independent Alliance and Fianna Fáil specifically has the commitment to "regularly increasing defence budgets in real terms in order to reach agreed objectives". As PESCO commitments are binding, we have to increase that expenditure. There is no solace to be had by saying it might have increased anyway because the type of increased expenditure Members would seek are improvements to the pay, conditions and pension entitlements of Defence Forces personnel, not expenditure on a project that is clearly driven by the arms industry across Europe. It is uncontested that PESCO, along with the European Defence Fund, is driven by arms manufacturers sitting at the heart of the European Commission. We are talking about €6 billion a year in grants to the arms industry from EU member states under PESCO. The Minister of State needs to explain it a little more.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The White Paper on Defence clearly states there will be ongoing investment in the Defence Forces. I have stated this on numerous occasions, here in the Chamber last week, before the select committee last Wednesday evening and in replies to parliamentary questions over the past 12 to 18 months. PESCO is provided for in the Treaty on European Union in Articles 42.6 and 46 and Protocol 10, which were introduced by the Lisbon treaty. PESCO was comprehensively discussed in the context of the Lisbon treaty, which was approved by the Irish people by referendum in October 2009. It is not the case that PESCO just appeared in this House last week. It has been debated at European level, it has been debated here at national level as part of the Lisbon treaty. I have heard some outrageous comments about us entering a European army, that we are giving away our sovereignty on neutrality. It could not be further from the truth.

Photo of Clare DalyClare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Minister of State is completely wrong. The Irish people voted again in the Lisbon treaty when they got the answer wrong the first time. To baldly state that this issue has been discussed in Irish society is simply wrong. There has hardly been a single article in the press or any coverage in the media at all. If one were to randomly stop people on the street, even people who are usually very well informed have an incredibly low level of knowledge about PESCO, what it means and our involvement in it. It is not an exaggeration to say that the reason it was rushed through in such an unorthodox way was to avoid that type of public scrutiny because the Minister of State knows well that Irish people do not want to be part of a European army. The Minister of State is correct to refer back to the White Paper on Defence. It explicitly urges steps towards the creation of an EU army, such as integration of military capabilities and defence industries but it is not something that the Irish people have had the chance to address.

I think that is one of the reasons the Minister would not let us address it.

5:15 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Standing Orders allow me to take a supplementary question.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, told us this was a structured initiative, to opt into and to opt out of what we want. We already have an opt in-opt out facility so why do we need to join a group to have more opt-in and opt-out? We are not opting in but joining. Ireland's neutrality is a matter of Government policy rather than a requirement of statute law as it is not in the Constitution. An exception to this is Article 29.4.9°. Deputy Eamon Ó Cuív played his part in ensuring this was in the Nice and Lisbon treaties. Following an amendment, it states: "The State shall not adopt a decision taken by the European Council to establish a common defence pursuant to Article 42 of the Treaty on European Union where that common defence would include the State." We are not supposed to be joining this but only yesterday Jean-Claude Juncker boasted:

In June I said it was time to wake up to the Sleeping Beauty of the Lisbon Treaty: permanent structured cooperation. Six months later it is happening. I welcome the steps taken today by Member States to lay the foundations of a European Defence Union.

That is exactly what we are joining. How come the Government has not outlined where the money is going to come from in the next three years?

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That will be a matter for the Dáil and, as an elected Member of this House, the Deputy has an opportunity to vote on the annual budget for the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces. That is where the money comes from - it is State funding and we have committed to increasing defence spending, in both the programme for Government and the White Paper.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are increasing defence spending but not building any houses.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Why do we fund hospitals or education?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We are not building enough of them, either.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is easy to trot this sort of stuff out but last Wednesday evening I spent an hour and a half in committee, where I was asked the exact same question about why this was taken out of the blue. I have answered questions in the Oireachtas, both written and oral, on PESCO. I answered written questions on the matter on 16 December 2016, 17 May 2017, 12 July 2017 and 22 November 2017, and I answered oral questions in July 2017, as well as a topical issue in November 2017. I took a Commencement matter in Seanad Éireann on the topic. There was a recent article-----

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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There has been no public debate.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I understand the rules of the House but I would have liked another opportunity to respond.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I want to accommodate the two following Deputies. My problem is that I am too reasonable. In future, I will allow two minutes only.