Dáil debates

Wednesday, 29 November 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Climate Change Policy

1:35 pm

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to attend the climate change summit in Paris on 12 December 2017 and if he will report on discussions he has had with President Macron regarding the summit. [50599/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the invitation he has received from President Macron of France to attend a climate change summit in Paris on 12 December 2017. [49176/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he plans to attend the climate change summit in Paris and the number of staff in his Department who work on this issue within the economic division. [50472/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach the position regarding his Department's strategy statement and its commitment to moving focus from negotiation to implementation of Ireland's international climate change commitments. [49415/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4, 6, 13 and 14 together.

I was invited to participate in the "One Planet" Summit on 12 December in Paris by the Secretary General of the United Nations, António Guterres, the President of France, Emmanuel Macron, and the President of the World Bank Group, Jim Yong Kim. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend this summit and I have passed on my regrets. The Government will be represented by the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment. While I had no discussions about the summit with those organising it, I have made clear my view that climate change is one of the most pressing issues of our time and the Government is fully committed to the implementation of the Paris agreement.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The damage that was done to our country through an international study ranking us as the worst in Europe was only made worse earlier this week when we saw the latest EPA figures showing that our emissions rose by 3% in 2016. Emissions in every sector grew with no sign of anything stopping this incredible increase in pollution for which we are responsible and that is doing real damage to our country. In the Taoiseach's discussion with President Macron on 24 October last, did President Macron mention the fact that he may be setting a different example? President Macron has agreed to phase out coal power by 2022. Would we not do something similar to try to restore our reputation? President Macron is committed to doubling wind and solar power. Would we not look to do something similar?

President Macron's government has set a timeline for phasing out the fossil fuel-based car fleet and has committed to do no more exploration in the Atlantic waters, which are just the same or very similar to our waters. It is reported that the Taoiseach is a keen admirer of President Macron. Would the Taoiseach not think of replicating some of those measures that would start to restore our reputation because if we keep on the way we are going, this will increasingly be a black spot on this country and we will miss out on the economic opportunities that exist from those countries that are showing a lead? When the Taoiseach talks with President Macron, does President Macron mention climate change? Do the Taoiseach and President Macron ever talk about some of the initiatives President Macron is delivering which we could imitate and restore our reputation?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I think people and businesses are way ahead of this Government when it comes to understanding the seriousness of climate change and how we all have to act both individually and collectively. As the Taoiseach perhaps travels this evening or today, for example, if he travels along the Navan Road and through Castleknock, he will see lots of houses with solar panels on the roof and vast numbers of skips outside doors and gardens where people are re-insulating their houses. When the Taoiseach goes to Paris, rather than going as the poor relation looking for a handout of some kind, could he go with a message that the Government will actually play catch up with people and businesses in Ireland? He should look to Intel's recent announcement. We have yet to have an electric train that travels from Dublin to Cork or indeed from Dublin to Belfast. The Taoiseach has been in office for a significant period and we have heard nothing about his vision of where he hopes to make the country better. He should not be looking for handouts and concessions when he goes to Paris. Will he go with a plan that will make people in Ireland proud that while it is difficult and expensive to deal with climate change and we must find resources, we will start with electric trains and electrifying the bus fleet in Dublin instead of having filthy diesel buses driven by fabulous staff in Dublin Bus?

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Eamon Ryan has already put on the record of the House the fact that the EPA has shown this week that our emissions increased by 3.5% this year due to increased activity in dairy, energy and transport. It may have escaped national focus because of political controversy in recent days but because of that, this nation is facing fines of at least €455 million, which is an enormous sum, by 2020 and maybe up to €600 million. The year 2020 is not that far away and €600 million would gobble up a fair chunk of any available fiscal space we might have and should be devoting to other more productive uses building the capacity of this State. We are already well behind the curve. What specifically are we going to do? Are we just going to sail into a situation where we are going to buy carbon credits and face fines rather than take a really proactive line now to bring the actual greenhouse gas emissions we create in this country into line with the commitments we made openly and voluntarily to the international community?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with Deputies who spoke previously, particularly Deputies Eamon Ryan, Joan Burton and Brendan Howlin, regarding the Government's abject performance on climate change. Indeed I would trace this back to when the current Commissioner for Agriculture and Rural Development was Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. I think Fine Gael took the position that dealing with climate change was electorally damaging, particularly in rural Ireland, and essentially jettisoned any real commitment to it. This has been manifest since then. One can see it with the recent Heritage Bill, which concerned ditches and hedges. Where did that spring from? Who were the influencers that said we needed legislation on that, which was quite significant in its destruction of biodiversity? I spoke to many farmers who really did not have an agenda to do this.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Fianna Fáil voted for it.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, we did not. The Deputy knows we amended that Bill in the Seanad. I am just making the point that in terms of the introduction of that Bill, nobody knows where it came from unless there were hidden influences influencing it. The point I am trying to make is that there is an absence of vision regarding the agenda across the board in terms of renewable energy support schemes, renewable heating incentives, not meeting targets and so forth. The broader question is that hundreds of millions of euro will be lost in the coming years through fines and, as Deputy Howlin noted, the buying of carbon credits when that money could be used far more effectively in transport initiatives in particular. We will have an issue with agriculture and food if we are not careful. I believe in food security and I believe we need food production, but the transport sector is getting out of control again in terms of emissions and radical action is required in this sector to change the paradigm around our climate change policy.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The EPA has warned that this State will only reach between 4% and 6% of our 2020 emissions target. As others have said, the EPA revealed that, last year, our greenhouse gas emissions increased by 3.5%. We are one of only four states in the EU that are still producing emissions above the 1990 levels and will also be one of the very few to miss the 20% reduction target. It has been established by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment that fines could be between €1 billion and €1.5 billion.

Will the Taoiseach explain why the Government is failing to take the necessary action to avoid this? Will he respond to the 13 recommendations of the Citizens' Assembly on climate change? Will the Government incorporate them into Government policy? Will the Taoiseach update the Dáil on the national adoption framework which is to set out the strategy to be employed to reduce the vulnerability of the State to the negative effects of climate change? Will these proposals be available by 10 December, as promised?

1:45 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Our shocking failure to reduce CO2 emissions has been further exposed by the EPA's report. Is the Taoiseach willing to take the radical action necessary and end the special pleading for our pathetic performance? Both Deputy Bríd Smith and Deputy Eamon Ryan this week and last week submitted Bills proposing a decision to grant no more licences for the exploration of oil and gas. If we were to do that, we would contribute significantly as a country. Deputy Bríd Smith reports from the Bonn summit that delegates were very excited about the prospect that if it happened in Ireland, like the fracking ban, it could have a huge impact internationally. If we were to make that decision, we could go from being the worst to being a leader.

I have been banging on in the Dáil for the past six years about forests and trees. Our performance in afforestation is shockingly bad. It is one of the worst in Europe. We are missing all our targets. Our level of forest cover is pathetically low. The Larry Goodmans of this world and the big ranchers are to blame because they want the land for their businesses, but we need to increase the level of our forest cover. There are ways to do this that farmers would get behind if we were to support them and explain how increasing the level of forest cover on their land would benefit them financially and the environment without infringing on other things. We need to do something about Coillte's failure to plant trees.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Joan Burton may not have heard the answer to the original question she asked. I am not going to Paris on 12 December. I will not be seeking any handout. I will not even be present; I will be in the House-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is a pity.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----no doubt talking to Members about the European Council summit which will happen 40 hours later. I will have to prioritise the summit in Brussels on 14 and 15 December over going to Paris on 12 December. It would not be possible for me to attend the House to speak to Members about that crucial summit if I was to be in Paris for the two days before the summit. I will not be in Paris looking for handouts. I am happy to assure the House that that will not be the case as I will not be there.

To respond to Deputy Eamon Ryan's questions about President Macron, to the best of my recollection, he did not specifically mention any of those things. We touched on climate change and also discussed the Mercosur. Ireland and France are very much aligned in their wish to protect their respective beef industries which are more carbon efficient than beef production in South America. One thing we need to make sure we will do not do in trying to tackle climate change is displace production to other countries that are less carbon efficient than us.

We are examining the future role of the Moneypoint plant, our major coal-burning power plant, and also of the peat-fired stations as the PSO will run out in a number of years. As it is unlikely to be renewed, we will have to consider whether these stations can continue or whether they should be replaced to burn alternative fuels such as biomass.

The ten-year capital programme, on which we are working, will have a very strong climate change focus. It will not be enough to satisfy the Government's critics who include everyone present in the Chamber, apart from the Minister, Deputy Katherine Zappone, and I, but it will be a big step forward in terms of our response to climate change.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would say the Minister, Deputy Katherine Zappone, has some private views on that matter.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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She surely has.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The things it will do in the areas of public transport and infrastructure will be aimed at modernising the bus fleet. It is not as simple as going electric in one year or moving to natural gas or fuel cells or other fuels. We actually have to build the fuelling plants in lots of places, which raises the question of whether depots should still be where they are. It will include actions to modernise the bus fleet and move away from existing fuels. On rail electrification, it would not be practical to electrify all of the railways; it would be practical to electrify some of them.

There will be investment in cycle ways and greenways, in addition to what is happening. The plan will also include the capital plans for EirGrid and the ESB and their plans to bring more renewables into the system to also make the grid smart.

There will be provision for further investment in forestry, above what is planned. The Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, has announced the renewable heat initiative which will come into effect next year. He is also very advanced in introducing new price supports for renewable energy initiatives, including solar energy, for example.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I hope it will be better than the Northern scheme.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Another thing we will have to consider which will have to be discussed in the context of the confidence and supply arrangement is what we should do with carbon taxes in the years ahead. It is my view that we should increase them in the years ahead, both to discourage the production of CO2, one of the greenhouse gases that causes climate change, and also potentially as a means to raise funds to pay some of the fines. We could pay some of them by taxing the bad behaviour and bad activities that will cause the fines to arise. That is something that will have to be discussed in the context of the confidence and supply arrangement because we would not be able to do it without the facilitation of the main Opposition party.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We could invest instead in public transport in advance.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There were no such proposals before the last budget.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have mentioned public transport. We do not have any oil, despite constantly being told by the far left about all of the oil we have given away. We do not actually have any oil; therefore, we have not given any away. We have some gas but not very much. Notwithstanding the fact that climate change is happening and caused by fossil fuels, for the long foreseeable future we will still need some oil and gas, whether to produce power, particularly when there are high demands for it, or to fly aeroplanes. To my knowledge, nobody has yet developed an aircraft that does not require fossil fuels at the very least as a backup. We need them for plastics and things such as-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Lighters.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----medical devices.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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That seems like a Macron explanation.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We will continue to need some oil and gas into the future. Does it make sense for us to buy it from the Middle East or South America or should we produce it ourselves?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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That concludes questions to the Taoiseach.

Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.