Frank O'Rourke (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to raise this issue in the Chamber today. The housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme is a short-term interim solution for people who are looking for a permanent home. It is a support measure for those people who cannot afford to rent in their own right and who are on their local authority's housing list. I am from County Kildare and my constituency of Kildare North is on the commuter belt. Accommodation in the area is much sought after for positive reasons and there are currently approximately 8,000 people on the housing list in Kildare, which is a massive number. Those on the housing list need support and assistance in finding a permanent home, either through the local authority or by some other means. We all know that there is a shortage of supply and there is no point in me dwelling on that point because it has been dealt with extensively in this House. When one has a shortage of supply and a scarce commodity, the cost of that commodity will increase. In that context, we have a number of options if we want to prevent people from becoming homeless and to help those who are homeless to find a home. We can let them carry on as they are and do nothing while we wait on the supply to increase or we can review the current support mechanisms, which are not working in the case of County Kildare, and try to provide better support to people in order that they can access private rental accommodation.

We must be honest and acknowledge that private rental accommodation is the only show in town for those who are on the housing list and seeking accommodation. In respect of those who show up to for viewings, for every family that has been approved for rental support there is another family that does not need such support, which is positive from the perspective of the latter. However, the people who have qualified for HAP and who are on the housing list are at a disadvantage. The Taoiseach acknowledged earlier today in the House that accommodation is very hard to come by. We have all acknowledged that but now we need to do something about it if we are serious about preventing people from becoming homeless.

The HAP scheme payment for a single parent or a couple with two children in County Kildare who are looking for a three-bedroom house is €1,260 with 20% discretion but the current rental price for such a house in any part of north County Kildare is approximately €1,450, so they are already around €200 behind the line. They also have to pay differential rent to the local authority based on their income. In these circumstances, they are at a severe disadvantage in terms of securing private rental accommodation they can afford. They are starting off way behind the line. This is leading to an increase in homelessness and the situation is getting worse. Even when the people who qualify for the HAP scheme view properties they know they will not be able to access them because the payments are inadequate. I ask that those payments be reviewed in the short term until supply increases.

There is also an issue with regard to the administration of the HAP scheme. It can take up to three months for a payment to come through after one applies for the HAP scheme. This also puts HAP applicants at a disadvantage vis-à-visthose who do not need rental support and who show up to viewings with a month's rent and a month's deposit in hand. Landlords or landladies are not going to wait for three months for a payment. If we are serious about dealing with homelessness we must help families to remain in their homes and we must also help families to get off the street. The Government must take this issue seriously and review the HAP scheme. We must do more to help homeless families to access homes.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy O'Rourke for raising this issue, which I am dealing with on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, who cannot be here today. I will begin by addressing the last point that the Deputy raised regarding the delay in the processing of applications for HAP. The point he makes in that regard is a fair one and I will certainly take up that issue because local government is in my remit. A reduction in the processing time is an objective that can be achieved. That would greatly help people who are trying to put a roof over their heads.

The housing assistance payment, HAP, scheme plays a vital role in housing eligible families and individuals. There are currently more than 29,800 households having their housing needs met via HAP and more than 20,000 landlords and agents in receipt of HAP payments. A weekly average of 348 HAP tenancies have been set up during 2017 and over the past five weeks, the average rate has been more than 420 per week.

As part of an A Programme for a Partnership Government commitment, the HAP rent limits were increased significantly by the Government in July 2016, and by up to 60% in some areas. The Government also provided local authorities with statutory flexibility to exceed the maximum rent limit by up to a maximum of 20% where necessary, and 50% in the case of eligible homeless households in the Dublin region. Both of these measures are allowing HAP households to find suitable accommodation and willing landlords.

The local authority can determine, on a case-by-case basis, what level of support to provide, based on the tenant's current position and the needs of a household, as well as the market rents in that local area. It is also open to authorities to take a consistent approach in regard to the provision of discretion in particular high-demand areas or in regard to a particular household type that might be faced with a shortage of suitable property in the area in which they wish to live.

From available data, at the end of the second quarter of 2017 - excluding the additional discretion available to eligible homeless households in the Dublin region - 12.6% of HAP households nationally were benefitting from the flexibility introduced by the Government in 2016 to exceed the rent limits and the average level of payment agreed stood at 14.9% beyond the rent limits. In the administrative area of County Kildare, 432 of the 1,128 households supported by HAP at that point, or approximately one in three households, were benefitting from the additional flexibility, with the average level of payment being agreed at approximately 13% beyond the rent limits.

To address one of the particular difficulties in this area, local authorities are cognisant that increasing the HAP rent limits in particular areas could have further inflationary effects on the private rented sector, which could have a detrimental impact on the wider rental market, including for those households who are not receiving HAP support but are renting privately. In this respect, any changes to the HAP rent limits could have a significant knock-on effect on the other measures taken by the Government in regard to the wider rental market, such as the rent pressure zones that have been introduced to moderate rent increases in those parts of the country where rents are highest and rising, including Newbridge, Naas, the Deputy's area of Celbridge-Leixlip and Maynooth.

In general, HAP applicants should be sourcing accommodation within the rent limits and the discretion available. The data reported by local authorities show this is happening, by and large, and people who can benefit from HAP are able to access accommodation within the support limits in place.

Frank O'Rourke (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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With due respect, there is nothing in that statement. Everything the Minister of State has said in his statement is what I acknowledged in my opening presentation to him. If we are serious about dealing with the issue, we have to agree to reviewing it. It is just another issue. The Minister of State comes into the Chamber, as do his colleagues, including the Taoiseach, and say they are serious about dealing with the issues of homelessness. I will take him at face value-----

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I never mentioned homelessness.

Frank O'Rourke (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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He mentioned helping people find a home or a house. We can be flippant about it, if the Minister of State wants. I am asking him why people are homeless. Let us analyse that. The first reason people are homeless is that local authorities, through Government policy, are not providing them with a social house. Second, people cannot access private rental accommodation because the limits are less than market value. I am well aware of the consequences of doing it, but if we are not going to review this scheme and provide help to such families in the affected counties, rather than nationally, then we are saying to them that we are sorry but can do nothing. If the current market value is, for example, €1,450, and the discretion to which the Minister of State refers and which I have factored in is 20%, this brings it to approximately €1,250. We are saying the person is starting off over €200 behind the line. We know that and acknowledge it but we are not going to do anything about it for the moment, until stock comes into the market, which is at least two or three years away.

I can see how seriously the Minister of State is taking this matter. Kildare County Council officials have raised this with the Department and have identified that this is a real problem for parts of County Kildare where HAP is not going far enough. This is adding to the homeless issue and adding to the number of people on the housing list who are not able to access the private rental market because it is unable to provide houses for them. The question we have to ask is whether we want to help these families. If we want to take them out of hotels and temporary accommodation or out of overcrowded family scenarios and provide them with some sort of short-term stable environment, I ask the Government to consider reviewing the points I have raised.

John Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy might learn some day that when he asks a direct question, he gets a script from the Department. In order to give accurate information, Ministers are requested to do this. The Chair will know that other Members, including Deputy O'Rourke, are not supposed to have scripts when they are speaking in the House but that is a Standing Order that is not observed by anybody.

In regard to the seriousness of the matter, I have never had a discussion with the Deputy before and he clearly does not know anything about me. I know north Kildare very well and I know people who are involved in building in north Kildare. Before he entered the House, Deputy O'Rourke was involved in construction himself, as far I remember. He knows the shortages that exist in north Kildare, despite the pure failure on his part to observe anything I said in my response. I opened my comments by saying that his point about the delay in processing applications was a valid one. He went on to completely ignore that acknowledgement but also the wider implications for those in private rented accommodation that could come if there was a significant change in the HAP scheme.

I indicated all along, including at the start of my comments, that there will be a review of the HAP scheme. The Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, has said many times that the housing options that are available to local authorities and individuals are under constant review. Deputy O'Rourke was a member of Kildare County Council and has not been a Member of this House for long. He might go back to Kildare County Council and look at the €6 billion in funding that is available from the central government to provide local authority houses. He might also reflect on the time before he entered politics, when he was building houses and when Fianna Fáil introduced legislation to privatise the building of public houses in this country - Part V and Noel Dempsey. Does he remember that fellow? I remember him. I used to come up against him when I was in the Seanad at the time. When the backside fell out of the private building sector in this country, there were no public houses that could be provided because Fianna Fáil had given the job to private sector people who were involved in construction, like the Deputy.

I think there is plenty for the Deputy to reflect upon. I am one of the fairest people the Deputy will ever meet in this House but to accuse me of not being serious about my job and to have such a lack of understanding about responses to parliamentary questions and Topical Issues shows a degree of ignorance that ill suits somebody representing the people of north Kildare.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will have to interrupt you. We must move on.