Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I hope the Minister of State enjoyed his party conference at the weekend but people were bewildered by the comments that emanated from it. They were bewildered earlier in the weekend as to who advises the Taoiseach and who thought it would be a good idea for him to take a picture of himself putting a spoon into a dishwasher or shared pictures of his "Mr. Taoiseach" mug and another pair of the array of coloured socks he has been receiving from various companies. These were all photo stunts to convince the population that the Taoiseach has a personality and is one of us but all obliterated by the remarks made by the housing Minister and repeated at the party conference by the Taoiseach. It seems Fine Gael are homelessness deniers. The party's members were not willing to debate the most pressing social issue at the party conference, meaning that the main Government party was sending out the message "Crisis; what crisis?" This was followed, disgracefully, by a well-paid Government adviser, Mr. Skehan, whose services are paid for by the taxpayer, going on national radio to say that the poor will always be with us. It is quite incredible and these stark examples bring it home to people that nobody in the Government seems to care or to recognise the scale of this crisis.

I will deal with the figures. The OECD is probably a good place to start when it comes to comparing figures. It estimates six core forms of homelessness. Most countries count some but not all of the core forms and Ireland uses the narrowest definition, only counting three out of six categories, while 18 out of 30 countries count more than that. Ireland only counts three: sleeping rough, emergency accommodation and homeless accommodation. The Irish system does not count people in institutions, such as the cancer sufferer in my constituency who is in a convalescent home and who cannot be released because he has nowhere to go. It does not count non-conventional dwellings, such as caravans or mobile homes, which are very common, sheds in back gardens or tents. It does not count people living temporarily in conventional housing with family and friends due to the lack of housing, which is probably most of the people we come across at our constituency offices. Very few of these are counted but if they were, the figures for homelessness would be multiples of what they are. The other sleight of hand was using two-year old figures - from 2015 - even though the rate of homelessness has almost doubled in two years.

Even if all the figures the Government provided are accurate and we are in a great position by international standards, what comfort will that be to any person who is actually homeless tonight? Should the woman from Blanchardstown, which is my area and in the Taoiseach's constituency, who is bringing several children to three different schools from a bed and breakfast in Gardiner Street take comfort in the statement that we are doing well by international standards? This is an attempt to normalise homelessness and state that it is acceptable. This is what Mr. Skehan's comments were about.

It is true that homelessness is an international phenomenon and that the Government adheres to a neoliberal philosophy which dominates many administrations. This philosophy states that public housing is to be minimised and spending on it is to be slashed. The right to a home does not count for anything any more. One trips over homeless people in America, the richest country in the world, but that is nothing to boast about. It is incredible that the Minister thinks it was apt to state this at his party conference. People now see the reality of the situation.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to elaborate upon the comments that were made by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, at the weekend in respect of lreland's rate of homelessness and to clarify the technical issues associated with making international comparisons. The Taoiseach is very well informed about the situation relating to housing and homelessness. He has immersed himself fully in our Department's brief, along with the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, in the past number of months and has attended a housing summit. He has worked with the Minister to ensure that we get extra money, with over €500 million allocated in the budget. We have secured over €6 billion of taxpayers' money to spend on this matter in the years ahead. The spend next year will be close to €2 billion. The Taoiseach is very well informed and very much aware that the position is not acceptable.

The Taoiseach and the Minister are correct that Ireland's rate of homelessness is low by international standards, including among EU member states and by comparison to our nearest neighbours. It is also important to acknowledge that bringing clarification to this issue is not to suggest that any excuses are being made for the number of households that are currently without permanent accommodation. Let me be crystal clear: the levels of homelessness we are currently experiencing in this country, including recent increases, are absolutely unacceptable. No one is disputing that and the Taoiseach, the Minister, the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Phelan, and I have said it repeatedly.

6 o’clock

The figures are there for everyone to see and no one is hiding from this. We have consistently said we will spend money on fixing this over a period but we cannot fix it in a week. We are certainly not hiding from the facts.

It is not good enough that more than 3,000 children are without permanent homes, that families are residing in hotels or that individuals are sleeping on the streets of our cities. However, neither is it acceptable to hear commentators talking down our country. Over the past two years we have seen this narrative reflected in the national media. It has been claimed that homelessness in Ireland is at its worst since the Famine and that we have a crisis that is the worst in Europe. Assertions have been made to the effect that homelessness in Ireland is at such crisis levels that we should be excused from the requirements of EU law in responding.

Some of this narrative has seeped into international coverage of our housing system, and it is damaging to Ireland’s international reputation that our social response to this issue is being portrayed as dysfunctional. As Teachtaí Dála we have a responsibility in this regard, and the good work being done in difficult circumstances needs to be recognised. We compliment the good work that is being done through all our local authorities, housing agencies, approved housing bodies and NGOs working in the sector, which spend a great deal of money tackling this issue. Some of it is taxpayers' money but some they raise themselves. They work night after night to provide services to people who are homeless and to help us find solutions for them. We cannot consistently undermine the great work they do.

There are a number of readily available international comparative studies on homelessness, which illustrate Ireland's position in this regard. One such report is that produced recently by the OECD, which sees Ireland in the top tier of 30 international nations. One of the most comprehensive EU comparisons ever carried out by the European Federation of National Organisations Working with the Homeless found Ireland to have one of the lowest rates of homelessness among member states. Of course, these comparisons need to be contextualised. Direct international comparisons are difficult because of the availability, type, quality and consistency of data in different countries. Some commentators say this lack of international uniformity means that we should not view Ireland’s favourable position in a positive light. However, Ireland is a world leader in the production of consistent and timely quality data. The homelessness data that is available for Ireland is not contested by our homeless services sector, as it is for many other nations where governments are accused of ignoring homelessness or underplaying the figures, which we certainly do not. When we accept the fact the data available for Ireland is timely, consistent and comprehensive then we can understand that, even despite the definitional variations that may arise in comparisons, it is clear that Ireland’s homeless rate is not extraordinary, and is actually considerably lower than many other countries that are comparable in socioeconomic and cultural terms.

I will now provide a direct comparison between our homeless rates and those in England and Scotland. These two nations also put considerable effort into monitoring homelessness and producing data, and so a direct comparison is possible. Based on the most recent reports, which were for September, there are 8,374 individuals, men, women and children, residing in emergency accommodation. These individuals equate to approximately 4,600 households. Based on census data from 2016, we had a national population of 4.76 million, broken down into 1.7 million households. A household can be a single person living alone or two or more persons living together.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I must interrupt the Minister of State because he does not have time now. He will have further time. I know this is a very important issue but Deputy Coppinger must also get her two minutes.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I have the OECD figures in front of me. As I explained at the outset, Ireland uses fewer categories when it comes to evaluating homelessness. The figures for the UK, our nearest neighbour, refer to the number of households applying for housing assistance to local authorities. Such households are accepted as being in the statutory homelessness category during the year of reference. We do not do this. The figures of the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government do not count rough sleeping either. Perhaps they are added somewhere else but they are not counted officially on the Department's website. It only deals with those in emergency accommodation.

We could argue until the cows come home, but everybody knows that 464 public houses were built last year. In the 1970s, 8,000 or 9,000 were routinely built each year. This morning, as people got up, they were told that house prices are to increase by 20% in the next couple of years because there is no affordable housing and there is not enough housing for the growing population. The Minister of State can argue all he likes. What was most pertinent about the comments the Taoiseach made at the weekend is that they revealed a real belief. They were backed up later by Mr. Skehan, who is a Government adviser. How can we have somebody heading up the Housing Agency who thinks the poor will always be with us and that we should not get emotional about homelessness? I wish he would tell that to the people I meet every day in the Dublin West constituency, which is a black spot for homelessness because of our young migrant and very transient population. People do not have anywhere to live.

The Minister of State also mentioned the census. Huge numbers of young people aged under 30 are stuck at home. Almost 500,000 of them cannot get out from under their parents' feet and create independent lives for themselves. They are not counted as being homeless either, but they are also in housing need. We were told it would take 40 years to clear the housing waiting list if we wait for the Government, with its neoliberal philosophy, and capitalism to solve the problem. A complete change is required. We need an alternative whereby people who believe in public housing are in control.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I want to make very clear that the figures I tried to give earlier show we have a homelessness rate of approximately 2.7 households for every 1,000 households. In England, the figure is 3.45 homeless households for 1,000. The figure for Scotland is higher again. The Deputy is right to say that the number of those rough sleeping in England, namely, 4,134 people, is also very high. When the census was taken, the figure in Ireland was 123. The count of rough sleepers taken twice a year estimates the number approximately 130 or 140. It might be slightly higher. We try to monitor this figure, deal with it and be very clear.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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So the Government is doing a good job.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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We provide emergency accommodation and we will provide an increased number of emergency beds in the months ahead to allow for potentially cold weather.

We are not saying that it is acceptable. I want to be absolutely clear on this. Speaking about international comparisons does not in any way try to excuse or normalise homelessness. That is not what this is about. We have put in the resources to fix it. The Deputy, the committee and many others wanted the Government to commit to 10,000 social houses a year. This is exactly what we are doing. The money is being ring-fenced to deliver 50,000 social housing units over the next couple of years. In addition, we also provide many temporary solutions through the HAP scheme and RAS. Per working day, approximately 85 people are given housing solutions. Next year, the figure will be approximately 100. In the year gone by, more than 3,000 people left an emergency homeless situation and went into a house. We are making some progress. We say every week that we know it is not enough and we have to do more. We have put more money into it and we are trying many new measures, including direct build, leasing, acquiring vacant properties and bringing empty properties back into use. We will do all we can to intervene in the market to increase the supply of housing. Please do not keep telling me that we do not care or that we are not trying. Next year, €2 billion, which is a lot of money, will be spent on this. We are making inroads.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It is the same as ten years ago.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is not the same as ten years ago.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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It is actually.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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The number of adults is the same as ten years ago, but the difference is that more than 3,000 children are homeless now. We have to put in more money to fix this and we will fix it. Progress is being made. Please do not do down the work that is being done by all of those involved in providing solutions, because 85 solutions a day is quite a lot. It is not enough to deal with it so we will do even more next year and we will get on top of this.