Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of the nine Members who tabled the matter, only six are in the Chamber. I will allow each of the six Members in the Chamber two minutes for each initial contribution, four minutes to the Minister to reply and one minute each for a supplementary question.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Acting Chairman and the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for giving us permission to raise this matter. It is a cross-party group and one which might not come together on many other subjects. It is appropriate that the Minister for Education and Skills is taking the matter because he will have good knowledge of it also. It is about valuing the work of community employment schemes, as we all do in the House.

Community employment schemes do superb work the length and breath of this country but they are absolutely dependent on the quality of their supervisors for the skills imparted to participants and the benefit for the community through the sponsor. For many years, supervisors have been left in abeyance in relation to their pension entitlements. In 2008, the Labour Court decided that supervisors should have received pension entitlements and FÁS put aside €10 million to put a pension scheme in place. Since then, however, nothing has happened and supervisors, many of whom have retired, are getting incredibly frustrated and feel completely abandoned by the system. They are being abused in terms of their relationship with the local community which is being exploited by forces unknown which know they will not walk out on their local communities. Their commitment to their schemes, which goes way beyond normal employment hours, is phenomenal but it is not being recognised.

I understand that there is a meeting next week of the high-level forum. I also understand that former Deputy, Jack Wall, designed a pathway to a resolution for this, although Deputy Penrose might know more about that. Why have we not proceeded with that pathway and why have we not shown these individuals the respect that we all have for them? Why does the State not show them the respect of rewarding their lifetime effort with a decent pension and a recognition of the benefit they have given to many generations, in some cases, of participants and to their local communities? This is why the cross-party group has come together. There are many other Deputies who would like to be associated with this. The Minister and Deputies Gallagher, McConalogue and Scanlon approached me today. We could have got 159 Deputies to come in behind this. We need it resolved and we want an update from the Minister this evening about next week's meeting.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all colleagues who have come together today to support this very important topical issue. Critical to the success of community employment schemes nationally are the 1,250 supervisors who manage local projects on a day-to-day basis. These supervisors mentor, identify and source relevant training for participants and encourage progression to the workplace. Their work in all communities cannot be underestimated.

Unions representing community employment supervisors took a case to the Labour Court ten years ago seeking the provision of a pension scheme. The Labour Court recommended that an agreed pension scheme should be introduced. Not surprisingly, the workers concerned had a reasonable expectation that a pension scheme would be in place by now. Almost 250 supervisors have since retired with no pension provided. This year, between 30 and 40 supervisors will retire, again with no pension provision in place. After the decision was made, an initial capital sum of €10 million was identified to establish a pension scheme covering the period 2009 to 2011.

6 o’clock

With the economic crash hitting Ireland at the time, the capital sum was then used to address other issues. While Ireland's economic fortunes have greatly improved, the community employment, CE, supervisors recognised the ongoing constraints relating to the country's fiscal position. In this context, they are open to making a contribution to their pensions, despite the fact that the original understanding was the pensions would be provided on a non-contributory basis.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I commend all the Teachtaí Dála whose names are associated with this matter and the many others who did not have the opportunity to contribute but who support the thrust of the debate.

I have met many CE supervisors and assistant supervisors in Waterford on a number of occasions over the years. I also met a national group of supervisors that has been campaigning for justice in this area for years. I imagine the Minister has met that group or is at least aware of its concerns and, therefore, of the background to this matter. He will also be aware that the Labour Court made a recommendation on this issue on 1 May 2008 and the supervisors and assistant supervisors want it implemented. I do not believe that is unreasonable. The supervisors and assistant supervisors have a clear pay link with managers, instructors and administrative staff in community training workshops and they are seeking a defined pension scheme similar to that which applies to these grades. What happened to them was a double injustice. It was complicated by the fact that in December 2007, the Public Service Benchmarking Body did not grant a pay increase to the majority of public servants because of the value it placed on public sector pensions. These supervisors and assistant supervisors received no pay increases at the time, even though they were not in receipt of pensions. They did not receive pay increases on the basis of the assumption that they were in receipt of pensions, which was not the case.

The unions accepted that while FÁS was not the direct employer of supervisors and assistant supervisors on CE schemes, because it was the funding agency, they had a claim for a defined benefit scheme. The Labour Court agreed and my simple message to the Minister and the Government is to please implement the Labour Court recommendation, accept the logic and justice of this position and do what is right for these people.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving us the opportunity to discuss this matter and I thank Deputy Calleary for organising the debate. I have been involved with a CE scheme since 1988. I recall meeting Mr. Ruairí Quinn, the then Minister for Labour in 1990. There are huge issues with these schemes and I have called for decades for an audit to be done as to their value. As Deputies Calleary, Butler and Cullinane said, the schemes are no good unless they have good, competent supervisors. His or her role has changed fundamentally in the past 30 years. It bears no relation to what it used to be. There are numerous health and safety and other regulations and they have many agencies to deal with. They first have to deal with the voluntary board of directors whom I must salute as well for doing good work. They then have to deal with all the constituency organisations. My local scheme looks after parts of Deputy Butler's constituency, including Ballymacarbry, Newcastle and Ballybacon, three parishes and communities where everything from graveyards to schools to GAA pitches, community alert schemes and a naíonra are looked after. I could go on for ever.

The supervisor is pulled and dragged every day by this, that and the other, apart from the all the agencies and regulations he or she has to deal with. I respect that this has to be done and that every penny must be accounted for. However, they have been abandoned. Many schemes have been amalgamated and supervisors have lost their jobs but they do not have any pensions. We need to recognise their work and salute them because they are filling in for the county council and the HSE as regards visiting the elderly, providing home help and so on. They are the real champions and 99.9 % of them do a tremendous job. Any of them who do not are weeded out.

These people are being abused and misused by the State. They are entitled to some recognition for the valuable service they provide. The most important job they have, especially in these times when there are such mental health issues, is to look after the well-being of all participants on their schemes - and sometimes their families - to ensure that they are in a safe environment where there is no bullying or racism, that the regulations are observed and that the everyday human issues they face are dealt with. Many of them, including our local supervisor, do this diligently. We need to recognise this and not hide behind red tape any more.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am glad to have an opportunity to contribute to this important debate on the plight of CE supervisors and assistant supervisors who have, notwithstanding the 2008 Labour Court hearing, been denied the import of the recommendation made, which was that an agreed pension scheme would be introduced for them and would be funded by FÁS, the recognised funding agency at the time. I recall meeting supervisors and assistant supervisors from the midland counties and their trade union representative in Rochfortbridge, County Westmeath, two and a half years ago. They were disappointed, angry and annoyed about the failure of the State to engage in a constructive manner in respect of the Labour Court recommendation. The court is an essential part of our industrial relations resolution machinery and they were disappointed, disenchanted and irate that they were being left in the lurch.

We are all aware of the importance of CE schemes through the country and the role they play in environmental enhancement and refurbishment in towns and villages. We have all witnessed, as I did in my own village of Ballynacargy, the annual increase in points in the Tidy Towns competition. Much of this arises from the contribution of Tidy Towns associations and the participants in CE schemes who take great pride in their work. CE schemes act as a stepping stone to regular work for some. There are 25,000 participants on schemes currently working with crèches, community halls, GAA and soccer clubs, Meals on Wheels schemes, Tidy Towns association and looking after the maintenance of green areas, as Deputy McGrath said. Critical to the success of the operation of CE are the 1,250 supervisors and assistant supervisors who manage the local projects on a daily basis and ensure the objectives of each scheme are achieved. This involves a plethora of bookkeeping, record-keeping and general management expertise. Since 2008, more than 250 supervisors have retired and, notwithstanding their expectation, no pension scheme or gratuity was provided. The Department is not looking to a create a precedent and a scoping exercise is being explored to see what can be provided but the community sector high-level forum, which was established in 2015 on foot of a recommendation by Mr. Kieran Mulvey, has been an abysmal failure. I understand the most recent meeting on 7 April 2017 broke up in disagreement because it is the equivalent of having talks about talks instead of confronting the issue head on and achieving a just and fair resolution for the supervisors and assistant supervisors. They will all be retired and they will get nothing until they qualify for the old age pension.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We should acknowledge that Deputies Curran, Fleming and Bríd Smith were on the clár.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is unfortunate that the Minister for Finance is not present, particularly in light of the level of interest among Members in this topic. It is unusual that no Minister from the Department of Finance is present and that is regrettable.

We are all too well aware of the important twofold role CE plays in supporting people, mainly from disadvantaged areas, to get back into the workforce through providing education and training opportunities and getting them to a point where they are work ready and in providing critical community facilities and services for people - whether they relate to the environment, child care or the elderly - that would not be provided otherwise if CE was not in place. The role of the CE supervisor is critical to the success of all those efforts. It is a challenging and responsible job and we should respect those who do that work.

Almost ten years ago, the Labour Court made a clear ruling that these people needed to be treated fairly and have pension provisions made for them in view of the responsible work they do. Subsequently, we had the economic crash and the extraordinary flexibility shown by unions and CE supervisors was exceptionally generous. They recognised that circumstances had changed and there was a need to pull back on that in spite of the fact they had an open-and-shut case, funding had been set aside and a full scoping exercise had been carried out by FÁS. We need a commitment from the Minister, on behalf of the Minister for Finance, regarding the full implementation of the then year old Labour Court ruling. That is why we are here. It is now time to deliver on that undertaking that was made almost ten years ago.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. This is unusual in that I am not sure I have before seen such a consensus across a number of Members of the House on a Topical Issue. I apologise on behalf of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, who is unavoidably unable to be here, but I think people recognise that he is dealing with particular issues of significant urgency at the moment. I am, therefore, taking this matter on his behalf.

I have seen throughout my fairly lengthy political career the benefit of the role of the community employment, CE, scheme. It has been a huge support for many communities at a time when neither the State nor the commercial sector could fulfil certain needs. It has also been a great opportunity for progression for many of those who participated. It gave them a chance to do useful work as well as access to training and skills. I, therefore, acknowledge the combined support of the House for the work it does.

The position is that, following a meeting with the trade unions SIPTU and IMPACT in late 2015, the community sector high level forum, which had ceased operation some years earlier, was reconvened by the then Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, in order to fully examine certain issues pertaining to the community employment sector, having regard to the consequences for costs and precedent. The community sector high level forum is chaired at assistant secretary level by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. The membership also includes a number of other Departments, namely, the Departments of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Health, Education and Skills and Housing, Planning and Local Government, as well as the agency Pobal and IMPACT and SIPTU, the two unions which represent the community employment scheme supervisors and assistant supervisors.

An issue which has been under discussion by the forum relates to community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors who have been seeking, through their union representatives, the allocation of Exchequer funding to implement a Labour Court recommendation relating to the provision of a pension scheme. This Labour Court recommendation was issued on 22 July 2008 following a hearing on 11 July 2008 in relation to a claim on behalf of community employment scheme supervisors and assistant supervisors, as supported by their unions. FÁS, the then funder of the community employment schemes, was not a party to the Labour Court hearing on the matter.

At the most recent forum meeting in April of this year, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform outlined its intention to conduct a detailed scoping exercise in order to comprehensively examine and assess the full potential implications of the issues under consideration. In considering the particular matter referred to, regard must be had to the costs and precedent of such an arrangement, were one to be created. This exercise is currently being progressed and will be completed shortly. The next meeting of the high level forum is on 2 November and the results of the scoping exercise will be made available to all members of the forum on that date.

It continues to be the position that State organisations are not the employer of the particular employees concerned and that it is not possible for the State to provide funding for such a scheme. The employees in question are, or were, employees of private companies, notwithstanding the fact that the companies concerned are, or were, reliant on State funding. In considering the matter, regard must be had to costs and the precedent of such an arrangement, were one to be created, given that the individuals employed in that sector are not employed by the State, even if many of the services they provide are funded by the State.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is an enormously frustrating response as it is the same response we have been getting for two years now. One, therefore, gets the impression from the response that the forum established by the former Minister, Deputy Howlin, has not achieved anything. Deputies have mentioned supervisors who have since retired. The first person to raise this issue with me has passed away - I am sure there are many others - and his family has been left without the benefit of a pension.

This weekend last year, the Tánaiste made a statement on a Labour Court recommendation relating to the Garda and referred to "the Government's long-standing respect for the rulings of the Labour Court as the independent industrial relations body of last resort in the State". That is how she defined the Labour Court and its rulings, and properly so, yet, on this occasion, the Government is ignoring the findings of the Labour Court - the independent industrial relations body of last resort of the State. A pathway on how to avoid relativity issues and other issues the Minister has mentioned was laid out but it seems it is being ignored. If we have to come back again on a cross-party basis, we will, but I ask the Minister to communicate to the Minister for Finance and the forum the cross-party support within Dáil Éireann for this case.

Mary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I, too, am extremely disappointed with the answer. The CE supervisors have experienced incredible frustration with the extreme slowness in resolving this situation. They have been extremely frustrated with the time taken to get the high level forum up and running. I understand that the forum met only four times since it was established in 2015. As the Minister is aware, another meeting of the forum will be held on 2 November. It is essential that a clear pathway is identified to finally recognise the Labour Court's recommendation that an agreed pension scheme, which would be funded by the recognised funding agency, should be introduced for the supervisors and assistant supervisors. It is ironic that the Government, which on numerous occasions has laid great store in the need for unions to accept and adhere to Labour Court recommendations, is itself refusing to commit to implementing this particular recommendation.

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The last part of the Minister's response sums up the problem. This does not relate to CE workers alone, although these supervisors are at the heart of this particular Topical Issue. We are increasingly seeing an outsourcing of State work to private companies. These are almost fully grant-supported by the State, yet the terms and conditions of employment for those who work in the companies are different from those of public sector workers. They also do not have the requisite pension entitlements. This is unfair on those workers and they are being penalised. I, too, am concerned about what I am hearing with regard to the high level forum and what might come back from it. The response is pretty much the same to that of the past two and a half years. This response is teeing up a response that there is nothing which can be done as it would create a precedent and the organisations and the State cannot afford to cover the costs. That is the writing on the wall. It is deeply cynical and disappointing. We will await the report but we will be back. The Labour Court recommendation should be implemented in full.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I, too, compliment Deputy Breathnach on being involved in the mid-Louth Leader programme as well as our Leas-Cheann Comhairle, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher, who is also involved. Any one of us who is worth our salt in the community have been impressed by the CE schemes. However, it is a poor relation and is considered cheap labour for the Government. These supervisors need to be supported. Some 250 members have retired since 2010 and many have died, with their families left without any semblance of a pension in recognition of their work. I am not asking but demanding that the Minister for Finance sit up and pay heed to the Labour Court, which has made the decision that they must be supported in some way.

Turas Nua, a private company, is one of the new groups tormenting people and driving them to all kinds of distraction. CE organisations nurture them and look after their bodily and mental well-being and look after the communities. Tidy Towns committees and others are of the people, from the people and by the people. They are the very essence of Ireland. Take them out and Ireland will stop because they are running so many institutions, including GAA fields and soccer pitches. They are involved in sport for health and provide all kinds of assistance to people. They are at the front line. Please acknowledge it and do not have us back here on an all-party basis. We will come back on an all-party basis and keep at it until we get due recognition for our excellent team of supervisors.

Willie Penrose (Longford-Westmeath, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is grossly unfair that those people will be reduced from earning a living to being dependent on social welfare and the old age pension. I have no doubt that, if the Government side engaged constructively with the trade unions, SIPTU and IMPACT, it would find willing partners who would work might and main to get a reasonable resolution that takes cognisance of the issue involved and, in particular, the country's ongoing tight fiscal situation.

The Deputy is right that there was a pathway towards dealing with the issue in terms of gratuities, etc., which would be paid, but it would recognise that a precedent would not be set. Let us have a formal commitment to set about implementing the Labour Court recommendation of 2008 and demonstrate that the Government respects the ruling of the Labour Court as the independent industrial relations body of last resort of the State. These supervisors have waited patiently for justice on the issue for the past nine years and we should allow them have it. Let us stop hiding behind the fig leaf that they are not employed by the State. In some local authorities, some CE supervisors did get pensions. Local authorities were in a position to provide them where they were engaged with the local authority. Therefore, let us stop this nonsense and get to the root of the problem. Former Deputy Jack Wall had a pathway to work with Jack O'Connor then. Let us implement that and it would solve the problem.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister's response is extremely disappointing. It represents a very significant departure from standard practice where the Government accepts and adheres to a recommendation of the Labour Court. The Minister is welshing on an earlier agreement. That is the only way to describe it. The principles involved in this were accepted and established in 2008. Bringing in the question of these people not being direct State employees is really a distraction. The ruling was in respect of FÁS needing to provide the funding necessary for the pensions, the successor organisation to FÁS is SOLAS and it should be doing it. The high level forum is not working. It is seen as merely a talking shop and a way of putting this issue on the long finger. We need solutions, not excuses, and a commitment from the Government to honour the agreement that was reached ten years ago.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the absence of Deputy Fleming, Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher had asked to say a couple of words.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I fully understand and I am not going to create a precedent although I would like to get in. As Deputies Calleary and McGrath said, I am very involved with the schemes in Donegal, as is Deputy McConalogue. I fully support my colleagues.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

SOLAS is not the successor to FÁS in respect of community employment schemes. The successor for those schemes is the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. SOLAS received the training element when FÁS was broken up and the other element went elsewhere.

I will certainly convey to the Minister the strength of people's concerns about this. I do not think it is fair to portray it as welshing on an agreement because, as I understand it, FÁS was not at the Labour Court. The procedure used in the Labour Court was that a party went to be bound itself but the other party, FÁS, did not consent to the taking of the issue to the Labour Court for a determination.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It made the funding available.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not the normal Labour Court hearing where people went in together and looked for an adjudication. That said, there is a recognition and an effort by the Department to put together a detailed scoping exercise. There is a commitment that this will be presented on 2 November, which is only a matter of days away. I will convey to the Minister the concerns of the Members who have spoken, which I am sure are shared by many others. Everyone recognises that this is a tricky area. It is not the State providing a service in the normal way.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is cheap labour.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is an unusual circumstance that has created difficulty over a considerable period. That difficulty has been recognised by many parties that have been in government over the period. It is not just some particular quirk of the Minister of the day. This has created difficulties for all the Ministers for Finance over the intervening period. It is a tricky issue but I will convey to the Minister the Deputies' concerns.