Dáil debates

Wednesday, 25 October 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Taoiseach's Meetings and Engagements

2:00 pm

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach the outcome of his meeting with Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. [43766/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, in Dublin on 5 October 2017; and the issues that were discussed. [43826/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Scottish First Minister, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, on 6 October 2017. [44891/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Scottish First Minister. [44894/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagement with the First Minister of Scotland, Ms Nicola Sturgeon, on 5 October 2017. [44615/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 11, inclusive, together.

I met with Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, on 5 October in Government Buildings. We held a very useful discussion on a range of shared challenges and priorities such as education, housing, health care, unemployment, economic management and the budget. Our conversation also touched on Brexit from our respective positions.

The First Minister set out her preference that the UK remains in the Single Market and customs union and restated her support for Irish priorities, including the avoidance of any new barriers to trade or the movement of people on our island. We acknowledged the strength of bilateral relations between Ireland and Scotland and committed to working to maintain and deepen them. I will meet the First Minister again in Jersey next month at the summit of the British-Irish Council. In the interests of ensuring continued strong relations across these islands, the First Minister also invited me to visit Scotland and I look forward to taking up her invitation in the new year.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will take a supplementary question from each Deputy in the order in which they were tabled.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I will be brief because the Taoiseach and I seem to agree with Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish First Minister. What does the Taoiseach see as the purpose of the British-Irish Council at this stage? Given the fundamental differences between the Scottish Administration and London on Brexit and the fact that members of the Northern Assembly will not be present, what is the purpose and expected outcome of the British-Irish Council? At a time when we most need it, it seems to have the least possible functional use, given London and Edinburgh cannot agree on anything.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I talked with the Scottish Government's Brexit Minister about four weeks ago. It was very clear he has done a lot of work on many scenarios and has issues with London. We should all acknowledge how the Scottish Government has approached this issue and how supportive it is of Ireland's agenda. During the consideration of the so-called Great Repeal Bill in the House of Commons, the SNP has been very active in building coalitions to try to protect and promote Scotland's interests. The most important of these amendments is one which seeks to ensure that powers removed from Brussels will be devolved to the devolved Administrations. This is absolutely vital to achieving a special deal for Northern Ireland. It is impossible to be sincere in saying Brexit is a huge threat to Ireland while also ensuring Northern Ireland is not at the Brexit negotiating table. In the absence of a Northern Executive, has the Taoiseach stated to Prime Minister May that we support the devolution of powers to the Assembly and the Executive?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Recent analysis suggests Scotland would lose €30 billion as a result of a hard Brexit. It would be reasonable, given the size of the two economies, to suggest the Republic of Ireland could suffer a loss of approximately half of that in the event of a hard Brexit. Northern Ireland's losses could be proportionately as high and well in excess of €5 billion, perhaps up to €10 billion. In that context, did the Taoiseach discuss the likely implications of a hard Brexit for Scotland in the context of the figures suggested for Scotland and also the likely fall-out for the island of Ireland? Did the Taoiseach identify in his meeting with Nicola Sturgeon the key issues which both Scotland and Ireland, North and South, might agree on. Does he agree with the comments of his party colleague and now Commissioner, Phil Hogan, that we are on a cliff edge to a hard Brexit. The Taoiseach has indicated he does not share that view but come December, he has a very difficult decision to make on whether he, as part of the 27, will allow the next phase of talks to go ahead, notwithstanding the fact that at this point in time we have no clear ideas on the outcomes for Scotland or for Ireland, North and South.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We all know the disastrous decision by the English Tories to call a referendum. The outworking of that referendum has placed a huge burden on people in Scotland, this State and the North and created very real economic, political and social challenges. Scotland, like the North, runs the risk of being pulled out of the European Union against its will. In the case of this island, it is against the will of the people in the North who voted to remain, against the will of the Oireachtas, which also voted accordingly, and the European Parliament. We have proposed that the North should be designated a special status within the European Union. The Taoiseach has yet to embrace that concept. The Scottish First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, is proposing at the very least that the British State should remain a member of the Single Market and the customs union. That is good. Her support for Ireland on these issues is also very welcome. The Taoiseach will know the British Prime Minister has made it clear that devolved Administrations will have no part in the negotiations. The First Minister of Scotland is a friend on these issues. Did the Taoiseach also discuss the particular importance of the Good Friday Agreement with her and the threat posed by Brexit to this agreement? Did he seek her support on that? I noticed earlier that the Taoiseach refrained from saying he supported it as an annex to any deal put together to facilitate the British leaving the European Union. The best legal advice and the strongest position is to have it there as an annex. I commend that position to the Taoiseach. Did he discuss any of this with the First Minister of Scotland, particularly in the context of the future of the Good Friday Agreement?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are out of time but the Taoiseach may give a short reply.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will be as brief as I can. It was a real pleasure to meet and talk with First Minister Sturgeon. We had spoken on the phone previously but it is the first time we met. She is a very impressive person. She is somebody who is very direct and business-like. I was very impressed by her. We are aligned on many issues and I look forward to working closely with the Scottish Government in the months and years ahead if we are given the opportunity.

Deputy Ryan asked a very valid question about the role and value of the British-Irish Council. I will attend my first meeting of it in a few weeks' time so I want to reserve judgment until I have come back from it to see what its value is. At the very least, it is an opportunity for the Taoiseach of the day, the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland - if the Executive was up and running - and the Administrations in the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands to meet each other. We all have busy diaries and schedules. The fact we are required to meet each other at least once a year is probably no harm. Even that has some value, although the British Prime Minister does not attend or has only attended on one occasion. I will see how it goes and perhaps when we come back after that I will be able to give the Deputy a better view on its value as a body. We may find that post-Brexit it becomes more valuable or we may need to give it a new role, particularly as Brexit will affect Ireland and the UK differently and will also impact on the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man which are not in the EU but are bound by EU law in some way.

How powers are allocated between Westminster and the devolved Administrations is a matter for the Westminster parliament.

It would not be advantageous to our national interests to try to tell the United Kingdom how it should allocate power between Westminster and the devolved parliaments. We have a particular role, obviously, regarding Northern Ireland, but that does not apply to Scotland and Wales.

It is not true to say that the devolved Administrations have no influence on Brexit; they do. They have influence through the Joint Ministerial Committee.

2:10 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no real room for negotiation.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They also have influence through the-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should not mislead the Dáil again.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They could have if the repeal Act is changed.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----Sewel convention and also through the legislation. They are not part of negotiations; that is absolutely correct. However, it is absolutely incorrect to say they have no influence or role because they can have an influence and a role.

Deputy Burton asked about a hard Brexit. Our meeting was quite short and rather than focusing on the hard Brexit, we spoke more about how we could avoid it, which is what both Scotland and Ireland would want.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Des the Taoiseach have a plan to avoid it?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is not inevitable by any means. We plan to avoid it, obviously, by negotiating an exit treaty with the UK and a subsequent new relationship treaty with the UK that does not result in a hard Brexit.