Dáil debates

Tuesday, 17 October 2017

2:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As the country is recovering from and absorbing the impact of Storm Ophelia, I take the opportunity to offer my sympathy to the families of those who lost their lives - Clare O'Neill from Waterford, a cancer nurse, who was driving her mother home; Michael Pyke from Cahir who was attempting to clear the road for his neighbours, and Fintan Goss who on his way home to his family - all of whom lost their lives so tragically. Their deaths illustrate the serious nature of the devastating storm and the importance of the work of first responders and the national emergency co-ordination group, chaired by Mr. Sean Hogan. I pay tribute to them and Mr. Hogan who calmly and diligently, with all those involved, worked to protect the people and minimise the damage, above all, to them and, secondly, to property. First responders deserve great credit - members of An Garda Síochána, fire service personnel, members of the Army and Civil Defence, as well as the ESB and, particularly, local authorities, local councils, which co-ordinated the emergency efforts at county and local level, again to minimise loss of live and damage. The national broadcaster, RTÉ, with TV3, local radio stations and the media, played a very important public service role in disseminating information to the public at large. Above all, Met Éireann played a very important role. It nailed it in its forecasting in advance of the storm and its work throughout to keep people briefed. If any organisation deserves substantial resources from here on, it is Met Éireann. I put it to the Taoiseach that this needs to happen.

In the light of this, I ask the Taoiseach to ensure a comprehensive evaluation of our preparations for and response to Storm Ophelia will take place. That is important when an event of this magnitude occurs. We know that ESB crews are out bravely restoring power to people's homes. Water supplies and so on are also being restored. I also ask that a national audit be undertaken by the local authorities. Will the Taoiseach initiate such an audit in the context of providing ring-fenced funding to deal with damaged and dangerous trees. Many communities and pensioners will not be in a position to fund the cutting down of dangerous trees, of which there will be many around the country because of the impact of the storm.

It would be useful to undertake a comprehensive audit of the response and ring-fence funding, in addition to ordinary local authority funds, to undertake that comprehensive work.

Yesterday's storm is a reminder that the Atlantic is warming and that the frequency and intensity of storms such as this will increase. I do not wish to be political in the context of the national effort which was made, but Ireland is not meeting its climate change targets and we must step up our efforts significantly to respond to them.

Is the Taoiseach interested in working with other parties in this House to review legislation to make it an offence to disobey safety warnings during a major weather event such as this? There was a lot of anger yesterday that the lives of first responders had been put at risk by needless activity. It is important that, as the Legislature, this House show cause by protecting first responders and creating a far greater awareness of the dangers inherent in such reckless activity.

2:05 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is always possible to learn lessons and strengthen future responses in the case of a national emergency. Today the Cabinet decided that it would undertake a full evaluation of our response once the clean-up was complete and power and water had been restored to everyone in the country. It will take place prior to the next meeting of the Office of Emergency Planning in November.

I very much agree with the Deputy's sentiments about people disobeying safety warnings. Not only did those who disobeyed safety warnings put themselves at risk, but they also risked the lives of members of the emergency services. There were two incidents yesterday which almost cost the lives of members of the emergency services and we were close to many more fatalities than were suffered yesterday. It was the worst storm to hit Ireland in 50 years or more. It was the first time there was a national alert which was declared on Sunday, 15 October at 1 p.m. As the Deputy noted, the storm did take three lives, those of Clare O'Neill, Fintan Goss and Michael Pyke. Everyone in the House offers his or her condolences to their families, friends, communities and all those grieving today.

What I witnessed on Sunday and yesterday was public service at its very best. We can all be very proud of the public service today. The national emergency co-ordination centre and the national emergency co-ordination group worked very well. I extend my particular thanks to the staff who all continue to work from Kildare Street today, the emergency services, local authority staff, the staff of Departments, Met Éireann, the transport companies, health service staff who worked extra shifts and often covered shifts for others who were unable to get to work, the Defence Forces, volunteers, including those in Civil Defence and many others. Decisions were made swiftly and communicated well. As a result the loss of life and limb was minimised. Today the clean-up is under way; roads are being made passable, while homes and businesses without power are being reconnected. Some 170,000 homes and businesses have been reconnected since 3 p.m. yesterday. There are 6,700 staff and contractors on the ground assisting in the clean-up and making repairs.

This morning's Cabinet meeting discussed routine business and also Storm Ophelia. The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, updated the Cabinet on this morning's meeting of the national emergency co-ordination group which he had attended on the Government's behalf. We have informed local authorities that they will receive additional resources to enable them to continue with the clean-up and that the provision of additional resources needed for road and infrastructure repairs will be considered in the normal way once they have been assessed and costed. The Defence Forces remain available to assist and aid the civil power on request.

Some 515,000 homes and businesses remain without power. By tomorrow morning all will have an indicative date for reconnection. Most will be reconnected within three to four days, but in some cases it may take up to ten days. Extra crews are coming here from Britain, Northern Ireland and France. I ask people to bear in mind that it is highly specialised work which cannot be done by anyone, only by trained staff and we must always ensure their health and safety.

Schools will reopen tomorrow when school buses will run as normal. The national emergency co-ordination group will continue to meet.

When it comes to water supplies there are about 80,000 homes without water, but tankers are being deployed as necessary in areas where water is not available.

2:10 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply, and I welcome the fact a comprehensive evaluation of the preparations and reaction to storm Ophelia will take place to inform future practice and future behaviour in what will become a pattern over the next number of years in terms of the frequency and intensity of such storms. I referenced a specific project in terms of eliminating dangerous trees. It is an important issue as traditionally there can be a patchy response and some councils are better than others. Some households are not in a position to respond and an opportunity could be taken now to do a once-off national audit and assessment and intervention on the specific issue.

There is a good article this morning by Harry McGee in The Irish Timeson the draft national adaptation plan and the need for the State to step up its investment in adaptation to prepare for such storms and their impact. This will need investment. When will the plan be finalised? It is important in the budgetary and Estimates context that not only is it published but that work is undertaken on delivering it. It is important in terms of preparation for future storms.

We are on target to miss our targets, if the House will excuse the pun, by 2020. This does not reflect well on us as a country. If anything, this storm, notwithstanding many sceptics, some in this House and elsewhere, shows there is an issue we cannot shirk any longer as a nation.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the dangerous trees, it is a very valid point and I will certainly ask the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, to engage with the County and City Management Association to see whether there is merit in a special programme to assess and remove some of the trees that may pose a danger to the public in future. The national mitigation plan on climate change was published-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The adaptation plan.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have a date for the publication of the adaptation plan, but the mitigation plan was published a month or two ago after a special meeting in Celbridge. In terms of our response to climate change, Deputies will be aware of the budget announcements yesterday, which included provision for special incentives to encourage more people to use electric vehicles, additional funding for cycling infrastructure throughout the State, funding for the Minister, Deputy Naughten, to bring in the renewable heating initiative to move towards renewable heat, and, by the end of the year, he will bring in price supports for other forms of renewable energy so we can increase the amount. The ten year capital plan will, of course, have to take into account the need to adapt to climate change, for example, electrification of some of our railways and other such investments and further investment in flood defences and other such adaptions, recognising the fact that while we cannot put any one storm down to climate change it is a scientific fact that we will see more storms and more severe weather events in the years ahead so we need to prepare for them.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I join with the Taoiseach and all of the House in our expressions of sympathy to and solidarity with the families and loved ones of Clare O'Neill, Michael Pyke and Fintan Goss. I also recognise the enormous efforts of our emergency services, our first responders, those organisations that deal with the homeless, ESB crews, public transport teams, people working in the health services and everybody who pulled together in the course of this weather event to keep us all safe. I also acknowledge communities the length and breadth of the land which will never lose their capacity to care about their neighbours and to keep an eye where necessary.

I want to return to the issue of the unfair changes that were made to the eligibility for the State pension. The changes were made and the consequences were known at the time to the Government.

It was well understood that they would have a disproportionate impact on women. Tens of thousands of women in the State are now affected and they are prevented from receiving their full entitlements. Many are losing out to the tune of €30 per week.

The National Women's Council, Age Action Ireland and the ICA have all called for a reversal of these changes. Indeed, the Taoiseach's own Minister for Finance described the situation as "bonkers and unbelievable" but it seems it was not bonkers enough to be addressed in his recent budget. In our budget, Sinn Féin did provide for this reversal. It would cost the Exchequer €70 million but the Government chose to ignore this proposal. Both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil voted against a Sinn Féin motion in the Dáil last December that called for the 2012 changes to be reversed and for a remedy to be implemented. The Taoiseach, therefore, has had two significant opportunities in the past ten months to demonstrate he is on the side of these women, and he has reneged on both, leaving the women high and dry.

It seems that something happened at the weekend for the Soldiers of Destiny - not an epiphany or genuine realisation that they were wrong on this matter. Put simply, what happened was that the issue hit the headlines. Along came the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis and, lo and behold, despite passing on every opportunity to right the wrong, Fianna Fáil announced a change it its position.

2:15 pm

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Something the Deputy never did.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It has now tabled a Dáil motion, which I welcome and which sets out to achieve the very thing it opposed last December.

Photo of Michael McGrathMichael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Not true.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, there is more brass on the necks of the Fianna Fáil leadership that one would expect in a marching band. Can we welcome Fianna Fáil to the corner of these women, no matter how late, cynical or self-serving its arrival might be? Here is the rub: the Taoiseach will lose the vote on the motion tomorrow night as I believe the Dáil will vote in support of the women. Given this reality, my questions are straightforward. Can the Taoiseach enlighten us as to when Fianna Fáil raised this issue with him in the course of the budget negotiations? Can he tell us when the 2012 changes will be finally overturned, and if their reversal will be accommodated in the social welfare Bill.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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This is a very complicated area. It is an area that took me quite some time to understand when I was Minister for Social Protection.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Women understand it, though.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Based on a lot of the commentary I have heard and even some opinion pieces I saw in the newspapers yesterday, I believe it is not fully understood by many of those who write about it or comment on it.

With regard to the comments of the Minister for Finance, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, it is very important to say his term "bonkers and unbelievable" referred to the existence of the marriage bar, which has not existed since 1973 but which was certainly a bonkers and unbelievable rule. It existed not in law but in many employments before that year. People who understand the pensions system will know that any public servant hired before 1995 pays PRSI at a lower rate, the 0.9% rate, and that rate does not entitle any public servant hired before 1995 to the State contributory pension, whether married or single, male or female, marriage-barred or not. It is important, therefore, not to confuse the 2012 change with the marriage bar because they are quite separate issues.

With regard to the changes of 2012, they did not just affect women, they affected men as well. Depending on whose estimates one accepts, the difference is about 60:40. Therefore, women were disproportionately affected. It did affect men as well as women, however, and it is important not to ignore all those men who did not deserve a mention in the Deputy's question. They were also affected by the change.

It is important to bear in mind that going back to the pre-2012 system is not necessarily fair either because it also had anomalies built into it. The most obvious of these was that somebody who paid 20 contributions, on average, got a 98% pension whereas somebody who paid 48 contributions, on average, got a 100% pension. Therefore, somebody who paid more than twice as many contributions got only 2% more in her or his pension. If a change is to be made to these rules, it should not be made in isolation because all one would do is throw up new anomalies and injustices. As a Government, we do accept there are anomalies in the system, the averaging one being the most obvious in that regard. Again, it is separate from the 2012 issue.

The Government believes any changes need to be carefully considered. They should not be done in isolation but comprehensively so as not to create new injustices or new anomalies. We should understand the full costs. We should answer the question of retrospectivity and whether it would apply to people who are already retired or just to people who are retiring now. We would need to understand who may gain and who may lose out from any change in the rules. Sometimes changing the rules can cause people to lose out as well as gain. We would need to profile the individual loss and we would also have to look at the impact on poverty. We should bear in mind that pensioner poverty among men in Ireland is higher than it is among women, which is something that often goes unreported.

A lot of work has been done in this regard by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. The first part was the publication of an actuarial review of the Social Insurance Fund because any money that is paid out from the State pension, contributory, has to be paid in from the fund so one would have to work out how additional money would be raised for that fund. The actuarial review is completed and will be published quite soon. The Minister, Deputy Regina Doherty, will soon publish a detailed document on the total contributions approach for public consultation. It is the new approach we want to move to, whereby everyone's contribution is counted and it does not matter when one makes them; what counts is the total number one makes throughout one's working career. That would also provide a generous disregard for those who took time out to look after children or disabled people in their home. The response should be comprehensive, not piecemeal.

2:25 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach did not answer the question.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I fully accept that pensioner poverty is an issue that affects men as well as women, but it is also a fact that the changes made in 2012 disproportionately affect women. That is why it is an issue of such concern for organisations such as the Irish Countrywomen's Association. As complex as pensions are and the rules and regulations concerning them, it is not complicated to understand that a change was made in 2012 which is costing thousands of people, disproportionately women, up to €30 a week. Those people, and those women, have campaigned long and hard and I imagine have lobbied every Member of the Dáil on this issue, and they tell me they have received assurances from every party in the Dáil that the 2012 changes will be reversed. I do not pretend for a moment that that is the beginning and end of pension reform. Clearly, it is not, but I am saying directly to the Taoiseach that those women and men who are affected adversely by the changes now need to have their full entitlements re-established.

Could I repeat my questions? The Taoiseach might actually answer them this time around. When did Fianna Fáil raise this issue with him? Did it form part of his pre-budget discussion? I imagine a simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice. I believe the Government will lose the vote tomorrow evening. In the event of losing the argument, and losing the day, will the reversal of the 2012 rules appear in the social welfare Bill?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It was not raised with me by Fianna Fáil or by Sinn Féin or by any other party in fact.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I beg your pardon. It was raised by us in our pre-budget submission.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is absolutely not true.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The question I was asked was whether in the run up to the pre-budget discussions, Fianna Fáil raised the issue with me. Fianna Fáil did not. Did any other party? No, they did not. They might have done a year or two years ago but that is a different question.

Photo of John BradyJohn Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is misleading the House.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thought the Taoiseach read our pre-budget submission.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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That is not to say the matter was not raised in other discussions, perhaps with the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, but I was not at other discussions. As a Government we absolutely accept that there is a need to review this whole area, to examine anomalies and to come up with changes but those changes should not be made in isolation. If we are going to introduce pension reform we should do it comprehensively and properly.

However, there is one area where I disagree with a number of the NGOs and people campaigning in this space. I have read some of what they have said, which is that they want to move away from the contributory principle altogether. I disagree with that. I respect that other people may have a view. The National Women's Council took the view in an article written yesterday that contributions should not matter and that there should just be a pension and everybody should get the same. I do not agree with that because that would mean saying to people, men and women alike, who paid PRSI for 20, 30 or 40 years that that now counts for nothing.

It would say to people who now pay PRSI that that would count for nothing.

2:35 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is a separate issue.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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If Sinn Féin shares the view of these NGOs and campaign groups that we should get rid of contributory pensions and the contributory principle and tell men and women alike to pay PRSI all their lives but that it should count for nothing, then Sinn Féin should tell the people that that is the party's policy.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I would like to convey my condolences and the condolences of all my colleagues in the Labour Party to the families of Clare O'Neill, Michael Pyke and Fintan Goss. When Met Éireann warned of a risk to life, we all hoped that it might not prove to be the case. Unfortunately, it clearly was. The three families most involved have our sympathy and condolences and those of everyone in the House and throughout the country.

In the past 48 hours we have been served incredibly well by a wide range of public services. Met Éireann and the Office of Emergency Planning made sure that we were warned in a timely fashion of the imminent danger. The call to issue a red alert for the entire country must have been a difficult one to make but it was the right one. The calls by the Minister for Education and Skills and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to close all schools and crèches were also the right decisions. The decision to stay closed for a second day was the right one as well. It allowed school leaders to assess any damage or risk to children before they actually arrive at their school buildings. I hope the Minister for Education and Skills will also make a sensible call not to require schools to make up these days - clearly this could not have been planned for.

Countless others deserve our thanks, including the council workers in every council throughout the country, who worked through the night to clear trees and debris; the rescue services personnel, who put their lives at risk in some places where they really should not have been required to, as others have said; the public service broadcasters, public and private, at local and national level, who kept reminding people of the dangers that were evolving during the course of the day; the Garda; local authorities; ESB Networks crews; the Coast Guard; and RNLI volunteers – I saw the RNLI crew in my constituency take to the high seas when I was fearful of walking down the street yesterday. All these deserve our great thanks, as does the Government. The Government acted with calm throughout this particular episode. The Taoiseach can be happy with the work of his Government during the past 48 hours.

The severity of the storm certainly deserves a debate in the House as to our readiness for the overarching issue of climate change. The House has not debated the climate mitigation plan referenced by the Taoiseach. Such a debate would be timely, especially if it was well in advance of the publication and determination of the ten-year capital plan.

In the meanwhile, I have two questions. The first relates to how red alerts are understood. On Sunday night, we saw many companies unsure how to deal with their employees. Should we not have a clear understanding throughout the economy, as is the case in the education sector, of what should be done in the event of a red alert? I came across a report last year that goes back to 2010. The current Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, was the Minister responsible at the time. It related to establishing a national text alert system. Public broadcasters are well and good but we could have a system, as envisaged in the 2010 report, where every individual in an affected area would have a specific warning. Is that something the Government will now look at?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Howlin for his kind words about our public servants and everyone who helped out yesterday and today with the clean-up. They will continue this in the weeks ahead. I echo his comments on that point. I was enormously proud of our public service yesterday and today and I think we saw the public service at its very best. I want to thank him for his kind words about the Government and my Ministers. It does not often happen in this Chamber, so when it does-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It will not happen too often.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I want to thank him for that.

I would be happy to have a debate on that and on climate change more generally but that would be up to the Business Committee. We will need to examine what a national red alert means. It was the first time we have ever had a national red alert and the whole country only went red on Sunday, 15 October, at 1 p.m., when certain decisions had to be made. One decision was to close schools and that was made within a few hours of the national red alert issuing. A decision was made that we could not leave it up to individual school boards and so on to decide and that it had to be done on a national basis. It caused genuine confusion for some people in the private sector because it was unclear to people as to whether or not they were to go into work. The advice we gave people was not to do any unessential travel but going to work is essential for many people. We will have to develop a better understanding of what a red alert means beyond the public sector and what it means in the private sector.

I am not sure if a national text alert is still in the offing. SMS is used much less frequently than it was in the past. It is probably dying out as a technology. People tend to use WhatsApp, Internet messages and so on. Any consideration would have to give some view to that and what the correct mechanism for informing people would be. I would like to say, as Deputy Martin said, that the media, and the national media in particular, were very helpful in getting messages out, including RTE, TV3 and others. The front page headlines on the newspapers on Monday morning were also very helpful. I do not think anyone who saw the front pages of the major newspapers on Monday morning could be in any doubt as to how serious the storm was.

The national adaptation framework consultation is open until 27 October, so we are still in the consultation phase. Once the Minister has the opportunity to consider the submissions, it will be brought to Government and published thereafter.

2:40 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment to having a full and proper debate on the climate mitigation plan. We might agree that we will do that in the next week or two and certainly well in advance of any final decisions being made with regard to the capital plan because it is important that we put money into an area that we are talking about and are now convinced about.

My second question is on how we act when there is a red alert. I had conversations with members of the Government on Sunday evening and we decided to close our own offices around the country. I had to ring people I had arranged to meet on Monday morning, including employers, who did not know what to do. We need to know, when events like this might occur, what specifically is expected of employers and employees in the event of a red alert affecting their area of work. A commitment by the Taoiseach to provide such guidelines would be very welcome.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to give that commitment. This is the first time we have ever had a national red alert. We have had red alerts in individual counties or groups of counties before but not on a nationwide basis. If guidelines do not exist already, which I do not think they do, it would be a very good idea to issue guidelines as to what alerts mean in many different circumstances, particularly for private sector employment. We can certainly work that into the review and have it considered by the next meeting of the Office of Emergency Planning in November.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Rural Independent Group would also like to register its deepest sympathies for the families who lost loved ones in yesterday's storm. I also compliment the Government, local authorities and, in the county I represent, Ms Moira Murrell, who is CEO of Kerry County Council, and all the great outdoor staff for the great work that they did, not just in our county but throughout the country. Those people worked so hard to ensure that everything was dealt with in the proper way.

I wish to ask the Taoiseach about the specific commitment in A Programme for a Partnership Government to protect our post office network. I raised this matter many times here.

I wish to declare that I myself am a postmaster so I know the workings of exactly what is happening.

We, the Independent group, passed a motion in November of 2016. I was grateful to every political group and individual here in this House who supported that motion at that time but, unfortunately, nothing has happened since. A motion was passed here. It gave a clear framework as to how we can protect our post offices. It is not an exaggeration to state that 700 post offices face insolvency in the next two years. When every postmaster who has been revised - a revision takes place every two or three years - gets back his or her figures, the postmaster is losing a lot of money, to such an extent that it questions the post office's viability completely.

Does the Taoiseach understand that in 2012 the social welfare contract was worth €60 million to the post offices? Today, it is worth just over €50 million. Why did that happen? First, it is Government policy. The Department was actively encouraging recipients to leave their post offices and use the commercial banks. The post office customers were being driven to commercial banks. I give the Taoiseach credit that when he was Minister at that time and I raised it with him he acted and ensured that letters being sent out to recipients encouraging them to go to the banks also pointed out that they could use the post offices. However, we must do more. When I saw "we", I mean every one of us - every political party and every individual here. All we need do is recognise that community banking is what saved the post office network in other parts of the world. It happened in New Zealand. It did not happen in England and Scotland. That is why they lost 10,000 post offices.

Anything we lose, as the Taoiseach well knows, we can never get back. If a post office closes in a community it is like taking the heart and soul out of that community. We have to recognise that the network is worth saving. It can be saved but we need the Taoiseach and the Government to provide policies and direction that will direct more business and more activity to the post offices.

2:45 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I reiterate that the Government is commitment to maintaining as much of the post office network as we can into the future. I read an interesting analysis not too long ago of politics in France. In France, those who are most likely to vote for the Front National, for extreme right or even extremely left parties, are those who live furthest away from the post office, a Garda station or a train station.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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He must give it to a research group.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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For many people the closure of post offices across rural Ireland and the closure even of Garda stations across rural Ireland is the equivalent to the State retreating and the State and public sector abandoning them. I am aware of the sensitivities in communities that when a post office is closed they feel that the State has pulled away from them and no longer cares about them. That is one of the reasons we are determined to-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Reopen Stepaside.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Michael Healy-Rae is a centrist so.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----maintain and secure the post office network into the future.

I should point out that the rate at which post offices are closing has slowed considerably. During the period of 2000 to 2010, when Fianna Fáil was in Government, 721 post offices closed.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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There are not too many left to close now.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Since the change of Government, in 2011, only 41 have closed. As Deputy Michael Healy-Rae will be aware, under Fianna Fáil post offices were closing 20 times faster than they are closing at present.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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How many of them offered to close?

Photo of Kevin O'KeeffeKevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We were building motorways.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the social welfare contract, Deputy Michael Healy-Rae did not mention one of the reasons the amount of money coming in from the social welfare contract to post offices has fallen so much is because unemployment has fallen so much. It has gone from 15% to 6%, and that will keep going downwards. There will be fewer people going into the post office to collect social welfare.

On pensioners, as the Deputy stated, I reversed the policy of encouraging recipients to use electronic transfer, but we do give pensioners the right to choose whether they want to go electronic or go to the post office. The reality is almost all of the modern-day pensioners turning 66 today want to get paid into their bank accounts-----

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Those are the ones who used to get up early in the morning.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----because that is the way they have been paid throughout their working lives. The number of pensioners going to the post office to collect their pension is only going to continue to fall as well. There will be fewer people going to the post office to collect pensions and social welfare. There are also fewer people using mail.

If post offices are to survive, they will need to change their business. This is very much the kind of solution the Minister is examining. Things such as community banking services are in the mix, as are things like digital assist. Particularly as Government services go online only, the aim is to use the post office as the portal for those who do not want to use computers or who, for some reason, are unable to do so. They will be able to go to the post office to access the services provided online. The revised business plan is still being worked on.

2:55 pm

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply, but going back to criticising Fianna Fáil is not a very helpful way to deal with the issue. What I am asking him to do is to study the motion brought before the House in November 2016 and implement it. I have 100% confidence in the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten. His heart is in the right place and I know that he would want to keep every post office open if it was humanly possible to do so. Again, this will require direction and leadership from the Taoiseach, but boasting about how few post offices have closed since Fine Gael came to power is not very helpful. We must ensure more custom is generated for post offices. The Taoiseach spoke about the number of people claiming unemployment benefit, but there are many other services which postmasters are equipped to provide in post offices if only the Government would agree to their doing so. I am pleading with the Taoiseach not to let the opportunity pass. He has a chance to really prove the point that the Government is committed to rural Ireland. He has an opportunity to show that they are not just words, that there is going to be substance behind the talk.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They are not just words. I spoke about the record in the past because it demonstrates that we are serious. In 2002, 102 post offices throughout the country were closed. In 2003, 193 post offices were closed, but so far this year, under Fine Gael, with the Independent Alliance and Independent Members, only one post office has been closed.

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Ten have been closed temporarily.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can see already that there has been a considerable slow down in the number of post offices that are being closed. It is not a coincidence that things have changed so much under this compared to previous Governments. I am committed to this, too, and it is something on which I will engage with the Minister in more detail in the weeks ahead to try to come up with a plan that will bring new business and modern services to post offices in order that they will be able to stay open. The only way to make them sustainable is to introduce new and modern services to replace those that are inevitably going to continue to decline.