Dáil debates

Wednesday, 4 October 2017

Water Services Bill 2017: Second Stage (Resumed)

 

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

8:05 pm

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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Fianna Fáil supports this Bill, which gives effect to the recommendations of the Committee on the Future Funding of Domestic Water published in April 2017. This legislation abolishes water charges and introduces fines or levies on those who waste water. After many hours in the committee, the following recommendations appear in the Bill. Now that the spin is over the facts remain. The facts are clear - water charges are gone for 92% of the population.

People who paid will be repaid. This is extremely important as there had to be equality. Those who complied could not be treated any less favourably than those who did not pay. Under the legislation, refunds will issue within one month of the Bill passing. Some 30,000 cheques per day can be sent out. The bulk of the 970,000 or so refunds should be completed by the new year once this legislation has been passed. The refunds are being financed via underspend from other Departments and will not have an impact on the fiscal space for budget 2018.

With this Bill, 92% of households will not pay a charge while those who waste water will have until July 2019 to rectify excessive water use, apply for an exemption or utilise the first fix policy. The regulator will determine normal usage in that time and it was agreed by all parties that homes can use 1.7 times that level. This formula can only be changed by agreement of the Dáil and accusations from the hard left that water charges will be back are completely false and populist propaganda. There will also be extra usage allowed for those with families of five and more, and those with medical conditions. People will have time to moderate their usage. An information campaign will also commence as that was part of the joint committee's recommendations. Any households above this usage level will be given an opportunity to fix leaks and reduce usage before being subject to a levy. If they waste water, they will be penalised. The Oireachtas joint committee committed to providing funding certainty for water infrastructure to ensure Ireland meets its Water Framework Directive obligations.

A new water services policy statement will be published under the legislation. This will link into the Irish Water strategic funding plan. Irish Water will have an annual budget reflecting that plan and the annual bill for domestic water usage. Irish Water funding will come straight from the Department, which will pay for every household's water bill as well as capital funding to Irish Water. This has already been built into the calculations of the fiscal space for 2018 so it will not have a direct impact on the budget for 2018. The report by Kevin Duffy on the funding of domestic public water services in Ireland recommended that water should be paid for by the Exchequer. Motor taxation will now go directly into the Exchequer rather than into the local government fund. This is to compensate for the fact that the Department will now pay the water usage bill.

Rural water schemes and group schemes also have to be dealt with fairly and equitably. The subsidy increase to the schemes will be maintained. The working group on verifying the subsidy levels to rural dwellers and those on the public water supply will be established after this legislation. Fianna Fáil has already boosted funding to group water schemes under the confidence and supply agreement. We will press on with this working group as a matter of priority to ensure equity between urban and rural dwellers' water supply costs.

The new framework will draw a line under the water charges fiasco introduced by the Fine Gael and Labour parties. The Fianna Fáil Party believes it is time to draw a clear line under this fiasco and move on. That is why we drew up a detailed pathway to reform Irish Water and ultimately abolish water charges. This Bill is the climax of that work and compromise over the past 18 months.

8:15 pm

Photo of John McGuinnessJohn McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I extend my congratulations to the Minister of State, Deputy John Paul Phelan, on his appointment. I wish him well in office and I have no doubt that he will bring his wisdom and experience of local government to the task before him. Undoubtedly while he does his national work, Carlow-Kilkenny will benefit immensely.

I am also delighted that the committee has concluded its work on this needlessly long drawn out issue. It shows a complete failure in politics that for so long we had to endure the debacle of Irish Water in its infancy, and the various scandals that tumbled out about consultancy fees and so on. That €0.5 billion spent on meters that are no longer required is something the political system should reflect on because another situation like this should be avoided at all costs and we should learn from our mistakes. There is a reference in the Bill to measuring the consumption of water and to penalties for those who abuse the system or waste water. It will be interesting to see how that works for the many households that do not have a meter. Whether it is a guesstimate or someone who sits in a house to watch what people do with the water, I do not know. It shows a continuation of the poor management of the introduction of a system to manage the water services.

I am concerned for the many employees of local government who are now used by Irish Water. It seems a circuitous route for complaints to have to make them to Irish Water which sends a former employee of the local council out to fix it. I acknowledge, however, the efficiency of the email system operated by Irish Water for responding to such complaints. That goes to show that this is an overlaying of a bureaucratic structure on a system that was working reasonably well but that was starved of funding by successive governments. That is all that was wrong. What will county managers around the country do now? They do not collect waste, housing has been outsourced, and they will not have to worry about water or commercial charges. They have more time on their hands to produce reports and to manipulate councillors into positions of accepting the various rates and so on that are put before them. I am anxious that this legislation makes clear that the Comptroller and Auditor General will be in a position to audit the spending of taxpayers' money by Irish Water. I think €2.6 billion went into Irish Water up to the end of 2017. It will require €1 billion a year. It will collect, and is already collecting, commercial water charges. A significant amount of money is going into Irish Water and that explains why it should be held accountable by the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General. While I understand that part of that fund may be subject to an audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General, I would like it to be more specific in the legislation so that there is no ambiguity about it and there is a clear message that we are now counting what is spent and we want to see value for taxpayers' money.

The local property tax will go directly to the local government fund. I am concerned that we would say in this House that road tax, while going to the Central Fund, will inevitably contribute in some way to the funding of Irish Water. It would be far better to say the local property tax and road tax will go to local councils to fund the much needed services that they are now finding it hard to deliver because the funding in various areas has been cut. It would send out the right message that road tax is for roads, local property tax is managed through the local government fund for something else and that the taxes to run Irish Water come from the Central Fund. That is a very important message to clarify in the context of this Bill. The Bill does not necessarily make that statement. In fact it makes quite a different statement.

It is now left to the Minister to introduce some guidelines on the reductions for medical use.

Whatever those guidelines, I would not like to see the bar set so high that it would inflict further difficulty on families who are dealing with medical issues and require more water than the norm. When one gets down to dealing with that, the Minister of State will see it is a complex question that requires an answer. I hope that the Minister of State or the Minister will fall in favour of the citizen and not put a further obstacle in that person's way.

I also want to draw attention to the absence of any criteria for the connection fees that are now being imposed by Irish Water and that will be imposed in the future. Under the councils, the cost was different and cheaper. The cost under Irish Water is significantly higher. In my constituency office, I have seen complaints registered about single household connections for water running at a rate of €10,000 to €12,000. It may be a once off, although I do not think it is, but I believe it is another way of raising money from people who are hard pressed. It is not right for people setting out to build their homes, receiving little or no support from the banks or anyone else, to be faced with an enormous charge. The Government must set down some form of guidelines and limits in order that Irish Water does not run away with itself and see this as another soft touch way to raise funds.

On rural schemes, whether it is water or sewerage, there is a need for a clear message, one that insists that Irish Water co-operates with the many volunteers throughout the country who run these schemes and work with them in a positive and proactive way to bring the schemes under their care for the purposes of repair and funding. In so doing, we would acknowledge the current volunteers and enhance the scheme itself, whether it is water or sewerage. It is crucial that the Government do this.

There is a great deal of suspicion of this Bill. The multiplier of 1.7 in terms of the usage could be changed by a majority in this House if Deputies so wished and it was recommended to them. We are in a strange kind of politics now, but that could also change. It could be that the majority on the other side of the House might decide to introduce or reduce the amount of water limited to a household which would lead to substantially more households paying for water. The whole debate around the 2016 election, and in the period before it, was about eliminating water charges. Had a vote been taken on the matter, a majority in this House would have been against water charges and Irish Water. What I see missing from this Bill is that Irish Water, which we on this side of the House described as a gold-plated quango, has survived, although it now has a five-man posse looking over its shoulder. This legislation is the best and most tangible way to explain the farce of what we call "new politics". It is neither here nor there. It has taken up a lot of time at committee and in debate in parliamentary party meetings and so on, but the sooner we get real with the electorate and tell it exactly what is in the legislation and how it will work, and remove any ambiguity around many of the issues, the better. Our actions must reflect the desire outside the House in terms of managing our affairs. I do not mean that merely in terms of opposition to water charges but more generally. I wish our Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, well. When he introduced this Bill, I think he said that he was not particularly proud of it, or words to that effect. That also explains how uncomfortable some Members are with this legislation, and other legislation too. The information that one can get directly from officials is much more clear than some of the information which comes through the political parties, for one reason or another.

I ask the Minister of State to note some of the issues I have raised as I believe they are of concern to the public. I encourage greater clarity in some aspects of the legislation because it is not clear. It is wrong to put local government taxes, such as road tax particularly here but also the local property tax, LPT, into a fund where people can see it being diverted into Irish Water. I am sceptical about the arrangement with Fine Gael. This legislation is a piece of fudge and I hope that in the future we will put the country and the affairs of the State first before we tinker around politically with issues that must be addressed.

8:25 pm

Photo of Denise MitchellDenise Mitchell (Dublin Bay North, Sinn Fein)
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Here we are, once again discussing the matter of water charges. It could have been easily avoided but in 2010 Fianna Fáil had the great idea to sign this State up for water charges, even though it was well aware of the public outcry it would cause. Since then, Fine Gael has done Fianna Fáil's work for it. Unfortunately for them, the public could see what was going to happen from a mile away. If the Government had had its way, it would have resulted in huge bills for water charges and the privatisation of water services. Instead, the Government was met by tens of thousands of citizens on the streets and at the ballot box who made it clear that they were against water charges and metering and that they are against any attempt to privatise the water network.

I have some concerns about the wording of the Bill, especially on the calculation of excessive use and allowances. It seems that regardless of the recommendations of the commission, the Government may decide to lower the allowance and the threshold over time. In a few years, we could see water charges return by the back door. That is not good enough. So-called excessive use charges can also be increased over time. I note particularly that the Bill states that when the threshold amount is being recalculated, it cannot exceed 1.7, so the allowance is only going one way, which is down. This means that in five years, we will be back in this Chamber discussing why water charges have made a massive comeback. It is a loophole to allow the gradual introduction of water charges down the road. The people marched in their tens of thousands and made it clear they will not accept water charges. I had assumed that the Government and Fianna Fáil had got that message, but the people know they cannot be trusted on the issue of water charges.

We were also promised a referendum on retaining water services in public ownership. This Bill contains no provision of the sort.

Perhaps the Government wants to bring forward separate legislation, but in media reports over recent days Government representatives have been out playing down the need for a referendum. I do not think this is acceptable. I am getting the impression that the Government is intentionally dragging its feet on this matter. The referendum needs to happen. The right to water and the public ownership of our water network needs to be enshrined in the Constitution to ensure there is no way this State's water network system will be sold off to a private for profit operator.

8:35 pm

Photo of Donnchadh Ó LaoghaireDonnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This legislation, which is quite considerable, is also quite noteworthy for some of the gaps contained in it, but I will return to this. I want to pick up briefly on a comment made by Deputy John McGuinness regarding local government. While in principle I have no objection to a single utility, it is fair to say some local authorities get undue criticism for their management of water services over many years. I happened to be in Cork City Council recently for a briefing and I asked where the water cooler was to get myself a drink. I was told there are none in City Hall because the local authority was always very confident in the quality of its own water and it felt its own staff and management should drink water from the tap. It was always my experience that the quality of water in Cork city was of a very high standard. This was not the case with all local authorities, but a regular point made by representatives of this and the previous Government is that local authorities were somewhat in dereliction of their duties. Like anything, when there is such a multiplicity of them there is variation in standards, but many discharged their duties perfectly well.

It is the case on a national basis, in particular in areas that saw rapid development, in some of the commuter belt areas in particular but also in other areas, that there was underinvestment in our water infrastructure. This is the reason that has been given or posited by the Government for the introduction of water charges. I do not agree with this principle, and I have my doubts about this motivation. In reality, if the Government wanted to ensure there was additional investment in water infrastructure it could have easily done so with additional capital infrastructure. The amount that local authorities spend on roads and housing in any given year is dependent on the national grants, and it would have been perfectly possible for the then Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, and now the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government, simply to provide additional funding and, if it so wished, to constrain it to investment in water infrastructure. There was no need for the considerable expense and cost of the metering project. There was certainly no need for water charges, the response to them and the considerable public anger.

I certainly got a very strong sense of the anger in my local community in Cork. It was one of the first places to protest against the installation of water meters. It is my belief that it proved to be the issue that tipped people over the edge, because they could nearly see austerity out their front door, as opposed to some of the other charges and cutbacks. When the contractors came into their estates they could actually see what was going to happen, and they could trace down the line what it would mean for them and the money in their pockets. This had a real impact on people's psychology.

The principle of water, which is such a ubiquitous and essential thing and something that is core to our everyday lives, is a large part of the reason there was such a response. We have seen probably one of the biggest political movements since the establishment of the State, in terms of the number and the scale of the marches. It was also quite notable for the fact that, and I say this with no sense of ego, it was not inspired or pushed by any political party. While supported by political parties, it was ultimately an organic movement from communities supported by trade unions and political parties, and it was one of the most organic political movements that has developed in the country for many years.

Returning to the point, it is absolutely my belief there was no need to introduce water charges to ensure investment in our water infrastructure. Around the same time that Conor Murphy ensured there would be no water charges in the North, there was also a very substantial package, one of the largest packages the Executive has overseen, invested in water infrastructure in the North. This would have been perfectly within the gift of the Government. It was clear that Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael wanted to introduce water charges. Both of them made commitments to that effect. There were manifesto commitments in 2011 on the part of Fine Gael, and by Fianna Fáil in the memorandum of understanding with the troika. There was a clear desire to do this. I do not believe it was seen with a view to conserving water, but as an additional source of revenue, and this is the reason they embarked upon this policy. They did not want to spend the money required and consequently designed a very complex off-balance sheet funding model, which led to the absolute mess and extremely arcane and Byzantine structure involved in Irish Water, and all the waste involved in that and all the controversy related to it. When they set about this funding model it required water charges and consequently required meters. As I have said, I do not believe any of this was to do with reducing waste of water, it was to avoid direct State investment.

We are opposed to this. We are opposed to water being commodified. We are particularly concerned about the potential for financialisation and privatisation. Minister after Minister, during the course of this debate and others, have said they have no intention of privatising our water supply and I believe them. I believe this is very likely the case and very likely the intention. In many other countries I am sure that was the intention where metering was introduced. It is often 15 or 20 years down the road before such a thing happens, but in country after country, and where it has devolved to local authorities in local authority after local authority, this has happened. Water systems are expensive to run. For cash-strapped local authorities and Governments where there is a charging structure and metering, the temptation will exist in times of difficulty, because it is a source of considerable finance that can be realised quite quickly.

Arguments can made that it can be kept within certain constraints, but inevitably it has happened in country after country. We have seen it in England in local authority after local authority, in France for a very lengthy period of time, throughout South America where water is considerably more scarce, and in other parts of Europe also. It is my view that water will become more and more profitable and more and more of a commodity throughout the world over the coming years, and will more and more become a target for business. If we have something that is there ready to be privatised, with a model that is capable of being financialised, the temptation will exist. This is one of the primary reasons we oppose this, as well as our belief that water is a fundamental right and something that should be provided as of need and right, and can be provided as of need and right.

I have already alluded to the movement developed to fight water charges, and it really was quite an historic moment. It has adjusted Government policy on this particular issue more than any movement has, although perhaps it could be argued there is a movement at present on the eighth amendment, which is equally beginning to shift public opinion and shift the ground.

It certainly adjusted the establishment's analysis, however. There was a great deal of hostile commentary from the establishment media but it has also moved both Fianna Fáil and the Government considerably on this issue. It has moved us onto the ground we are on and while this ground is not where we want to be, it is certainly far removed from where this debate began. We are in a position in which the metering programme is effectively halted and there is a commitment to enshrine public ownership of water in the Constitution. I will return to the latter point.

Having come under pressure, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael decided this issue should be dealt with by an expert group and a special Oireachtas committee. There was much toing and froing on that and there was a great deal of back and forth between some of the Deputies, particularly those from Fianna Fáil. At one stage, it looked as if legislation of this kind would not be possible, or certainly would not be recommended. At the last moment, yet again, Fianna Fáil did an about-turn on its position on water. Consequently, we are in our current position.

This is complex and quite detailed legislation, which amounts to over 40 pages. The point has been made by a number of my colleagues that the time for scrutiny is somewhat insufficient. I believe there are a number of amendments forthcoming.

There is nothing in this legislation on the referendum. I do not believe there is a date for it as yet. It was one of the clearest demands of the movement and one of the clearest recommendations of the committee. It is a position held by parties opposed to water charges and also by parties in favour, such as the Green Party. Therefore, I see no reason such a referendum could not be scheduled and why progress could not be made in that regard.

Some of the previous speakers stated the group water schemes will be dealt with at a later date. Again, there is nothing about equity for group water schemes in this legislation. There is also nothing about building regulations or education. Much of the research our party has done on our position is that there is considerable scope for reducing water wastage through public education programmes. As with a number of other policy areas, such programmes can deliver considerable behavioural changes.

The gaps I referred to concern the detail on the threshold and allowance amounts. Considerable latitude is being allowed to the Minister in this regard. Allowing the legislation to proceed in this manner is a particular concern for us and a criticism we have of the Fianna Fáil position. We are opposed to this proposal as it stands. While the threshold amount and the allowance set by the Minister might be modest to begin with, there is always the potential for them to be adjusted. It is likely. My understanding is that the Minister can reduce the multiplier after five years but not increase it.

If this trend continues, one is in the territory of asking whether the charge is a fine for excess use. The point was already made about the households without meters and how the calculation would be made in regard to them. There is considerable uncertainty in this respect. One is debating whether there is a fine or a charge through the back door. As we have said in this debate and previous ones, we believe this is a case of water charges through the back door. The infrastructure is being left in place.

Making reference to wastage and education, I made the point that much of the leakage is through the mains system and our creaking public water system, as we have said on record numerous times. Domestic users are not the big offenders. We are leaving the infrastructure in place for charging and excess-related charging. The path forward for what we are concerned about is clear. Excess charges can increase. The threshold can be adjusted, as can the allowance, and then one effectively has charges in all but name, in the same manner as registration fees were used to introduce quite considerable third level fees through the back door.

There is a considerable lack of detail on the medical exemption. That is to be set by the Minister. I am anxious to ensure that it is generous and considerable and takes into account a wide range of medical circumstances.

We are very disappointed with this legislation and the approach taken by Fianna Fáil, in particular, at the committee and subsequent to it. I am disappointed we are in this position where there is the potential for water charges to be introduced at a considerable level through the back door.

8:45 pm

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I wish to criticise very strongly the reaction of the Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, to Deputy Joan Collins's point on Leaders' Questions this morning. His response was quite shocking. He said the question of a referendum on water does not matter, does not affect the Irish people, does not have any impact on our lives, is neither here nor there, is an academic question, and does not bother any of us. He implied the other referenda that he wants, on blasphemy, etc., do bother us and have an impact on our lives. His remark was disgraceful because, from 2014 to 2017, the biggest response of a people's movement in the history of the State was seen in respect of something Governments tried to impose on those people. That response included many communities being treated and manhandled very badly not in scenes reminiscent of those in Catalonia, including Barcelona, but in very serious scenes of abuse and violence by gardaí in working class estates on the north side where people were blocking meters. Some of this activity resulted in people going to prison. Some resulted in many residents having to sacrifice much of their ordinary lives to get up early in the morning and mobilise on the streets in the freezing cold and in all sorts of weather. It affected people in areas such as Clondalkin, Drimnagh, Donnycarney, Coolock, Finglas, Dún Laoghaire and in places with which I am not so familiar, such as Togher and Ballyphehane in Cork. They mobilised and organised to protest. Furthermore, they mobilised and organised on an estate and road-by-road basis to ensure every member of the community would be aware of the issues concerning water changes and understood why it was necessary to mount a campaign of resistance that included non-payment. A major objective of the opposition was to prevent the privatisation of our most precious resource.

In early 2014, I organised a conference with my union, Unite, to examine the question of the commodification of water. We had a woman over from Bolivia called Marcela Olivera whose brother had led a campaign in that country to stop the privatisation of its water by Bechtel, Suez and other major multinationals who had moved in to gobble up a precious commodity of a people who were already impoverished and excluded. Thankfully, the campaign in Bolivia resulted in the prevention of the privatisation of water.

However, it also resulted very tragically in major riots and the deaths three of its citizens. When Marcela Olivera came to Dublin, she explained this very carefully. We also had people from Paris, Hamburg and Munich, all of whom were ordinary citizens campaigning for the re-municipalisation of their precious commodity, water.

In different parts of the world, including Europe, there is resistance to the privatisation of water. This was a key feature for people who marched, refused to pay and encouraged the development of an awareness in their communities that once a price is put on a commodity and an essential service, it becomes subject to the rigours of the market. It is open for competition, to be bought and sold and used and abused by giant multinational corporations which make extraordinary profits from the fundamentals of life.

Water is a fundamental of life. People can live for many days without food, as Bobby Sands and others have proven in the past. One cannot survive more than three or four days without water. It is the essence of life itself, along with the air we breathe. Perhaps someday there will be an attempt to privatise air. Some would argue that this has already been done because, for example, the poor in Mexico City live in the dirty, smelly and polluted part and the wealthy live in the hills, where the clean air is to be found. An inverted form of privatisation has already taken place, particularly in the Third World because of the polluted conditions in which people are forced to live.

Privatisation of water was absolutely central to the objective of the tens of thousands of people who fought, and marched and organised through the country. I am afraid that, once again, the Taoiseach is way behind the people and has got them wrong. He does not really get the ordinary people in this country. He does not get them on the question of choice and the eighth amendment or on strikes and how people fight to improve their wages and stop the privatisation of buses. He certainly does not get them on the question of water charges. How he responded to Deputy Joan Collins and, therefore, to the population at large, was an extraordinary insult. People should check out his response, which was nothing more than class snobbery. It was disdainful towards the people of the country who, like the their counterparts in Bolivia, successfully prevented the privatisation of water. The argument that water will always and for ever be saved from privatisation is as spurious as the Bill before us. The Bill is as full of complications, loopholes, obfuscations and different interpretations as a complex set of molecules one would look at under a microscope if one was trying to figure out chemistry.

It is obvious that this is an attempt to keep water charges open for the future, not just by the back door but by the front door, the windows, the skylight or whatever means necessary. The question of the sell-off and commodification of our water is being left open by the Government. That is why we need a better response from the Taoiseach to the need for a referendum. Our Bill has passed Second Stage and, as Deputy Joan Collins said, the Government would like to leave it there to rot, die and wither away rather than deal with this very fundamental and crucial issue. I would argue that it absolutely does matter to the people and will make a difference to their lives if it were enshrined in our Constitution that our water could never be privatised.

I want to respond to those who are pushing the Bill, that is, the Minister of State, Deputy English, the Minister, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, and their assistants, namely, Deputy Barry Cowen and Fianna Fail. They are giving the Ministers the cover they require after the fact. The country rose up, resisted and won on the question of water charges being abolished. The Minister claimed as a fact that the great work done by Irish Water in recent years is proof of the necessity to create the utility. He counterposed the reduction in boil water notices and the leaks treated to the efforts made before the creation of Irish Water. This is a hilarious and ridiculous comparison. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have, over decades, consistently and deliberately underfunded local authorities and overseen the systematic neglect of basic water services.

When he was Minister for Finance, Brian Cowen crowed about all of the extra fiscal space we had and the billions we had to spend. During his tenure as Taoiseach and Minister for Finance, he never did anything to fix a leak, ensure clean water or stop sewage flowing into our rivers. Underfunding of water services was dramatic on his watch, on that of Fine Gael and on that of successive coalition Governments involving Fianna Fáil, the Green Party and the Labour Party.

There is no comparison with Irish Water, at which millions of euro were thrown in order that people could pay themselves bonuses, engage consultants and give contracts for metering to Denis O'Brien and Siteserv. I do not have all of the figures in front of me, but everybody has become familiar with them. There was a deliberate running down of local authority funding and water utility services over previous decades. The arguments put forward do not, if people will pardon the pun, hold water.

The fiction recited by Deputy Barry Cowen may be worth a literary Nobel Prize some day. There was desperate attempt by Fianna Fáil to rewrite history and call the defeat of water charges to its credit. I do not recall Fianna Fáil out blocking meters, advocating non-payment and mobilising hundreds of thousands of people, nationally and locally, time and again to ensure that this, first, became the major issue of the general election campaign and, second, forced a deal between the two major conservative parties. In this fiction, Fianna Fáil has looked into its heart and decided that, for some reason, people do not pay water charges. Given that the very idea of water charges originated from the soldiers of destiny, how could Deputy Barry Cowen believe he was free to engage in this fiction? The reality that cannot be changed is that those who marched, protested, blocked meter installation, resisted and organised day and night know it is different, regardless of the fictional ramblings of Deputy Barry Cowen.

Much of what I want to say has been highlighted by others, but I will make a general point. Many here and in the media try to justify water charges by invoking environmental concerns, dismissing the charge itself and disparaging those who are active and who took on the forces of the State. We were told that it is just a small charge, that water has to be paid for and that the usual suspects do not want to pay for anything. We were given a litany of reasons to justify this, that and the other. I still hear bitter commentators make bewildered statements about why water charges caused such a huge movement to challenge the powers that be after so many years.

I hear the anger expressed by Deputy Barry Cowen and I understand it. Those to whom I refer thought that the Irish people would, after eight years, accept any amount of austerity and they were shocked and outraged when, finally, the population stood up to them. This rising was not based on ignorance or misunderstanding. Rather, it was based on knowing exactly what the game was, namely, that the charges were about commodifying an essential public good for which we already pay and that commodification was the prelude, as is anything else, to privatisation, increased charges and allowing Denis O'Brien and other industry bosses to make huge profits.

We know what happened across the world when charges followed privatisation. There was a lack of investment and services were often polluted. I remember in Britain the whole of Yorkshire was without water for months after Maggie Thatcher privatised the system because private utility companies could not deliver clean water services. There were outbreaks of cholera in South Africa when it privatised its water. In Brazil and elsewhere people have suffered Veolia's treatment of water services and at the hands of multinationals to which profit, and not the environment, is god.

It has been clear from the expert report that a major red herring was created around the question of average use in Ireland. I do not want to go into the complexities of the issue because people with better minds have done so, including those on my side of the fence. I refer here to comments made previously by Deputies Paul Murphy, Ó Broin and Boyd Barrett. There is a significant attempt to confuse the Irish population and, as I said, to leave not just the front door open but also the backdoor, the windows et alto bring in water charges in the future.

The crucial issue is that while all this was happening and while there is an attempt to implement some kind of charge for overuse, there is no evidence that the average Irish man, woman or child is guilty of overuse of water or of wasting water. Irish Water has given the Government figures that show that average usage here is below average usage in Great Britain, Denmark, etc., where they have meters and charges. What we are trying to do here is bring in a system whereby the average use will be reduced over a period of five years. By that time, there will be another Government and more and more people will be charged. There is confusion about whether a household of four, five or six is then calculated on the basis of having more allowances. A person could live on their own and use the same amount of water or live with two people and use the same amount of water but, generally speaking, they would need to use more if there are two, three or four people in the house. That is not rocket science. It is obvious. In a society where the average occupancy in households is increasing because the crisis has led so many young people and other extended family members to remain at home until they are in their 30s, there is an increasing number of households that are made up of four adults. According to the statistics, the average household is 2.75 but if there are four adults in the house and they use slightly more than the average, are they water wasters? Are they guilty of wasting this precious commodity? Are they more guilty than Irish Water for not fixing the leaks? Are they more guilty than the Government and previous Governments for not investing in the infrastructure and attempting to address the real problem where over 40% of our water - clean treated water - leaks through the system? An individual usage figure was something Fianna Fáil argued for, but we still have an overall household figure. We did the sums. If the average is 133 litres per person per day, the average household allowance will be 622. For four adults using the average amount, it will be 540 between them. It only requires them to use not even 20% extra water per person to face charges.

By hook or by crook, the Government, with the help of junior Minister Deputy Cowen and his Soldiers of Destiny party, is determined to bring in water charges. If it cannot do it in its lifetime, however long its confidence and supply agreement lasts, it is leaving it open for whichever party is in Government and possibly both parties together in coalition, because if they were honest with the people, that is exactly what they would do after the next election because there is not the thickness of a cigarette paper of difference between them in terms of policy. All of this is a charade, cosmetic and fictitious. To claim that Fianna Fáil has saved the Irish people on the question of water charges is a great joke and I am sure it will do the rounds in the water movement and the communities about how funny Deputy Cowen is. He is actually a scream when it comes to describing the history of this movement.

I will finish by saying that the Bill will probably get through because the Government has the backing of Fianna Fáil. The two big conservatives blocs here back it. In the past, it had the backing of the Green Party or the Labour Party at times to pursue water charges and to pursue people for them. However, there is a growing radical movement in this country that can see through it and the neoliberal agenda of the class it represents, which is to take every commodity - everything that moves - including health, transport and all of the decent public services. It did it with the bins. Look at the disaster waste management has become in this country. I know the knee-jerk reaction will be, "but Bríd Smith, you told people not to pay for it". Our movement argued that once we commodify an essential service and begin to pay for it, it becomes the subject of the market, as per the rules of the EU. No Government, local authority or State body can maintain control over a service that is paid for without allowing the private operators in on the act, and that is the very reason we said all of our essential services should be paid for through direct taxation.

Where are we going to find more taxes? One word: Apple. It is all over the media tonight. The Minister for Finance has been told to take the money off Apple or we will be brought to court and sued. The figure is €13 billion and possible even €19 billion if we add in the interest. What is wrong with the heads of the people who run this country? Imagine what could be done with that money and yet we are saying to a greedy corporation like Apple that it is great, it brings loads of jobs here and it has not made enough profit so we will not touch those billions that it owes us in taxes. It is not the only one because as we will see during next week's discussion on the budget, there are at least 13 other giant corporations in this country who are paying less than 1% effective tax. There is an average so-called effective tax rate of about 9% but there are 13 declared corporations of enormous proportions with enormous profits who are paying less than 1%, yet the Government wants to tell ordinary working families, the disabled and pensioners to pay more when it knows that they have already paid for their services through their taxation. Extra money was taken from the car tax to cover water service charges in the past. When Fianna Fáil had to do a U-turn on this, it said extra money would be taken from PRSI to cover water services. All of the conservative parties in this House need at some point to own up and just declare that, really, they are not for the little people. It is only the big guys they care about because that is what we see as the little people. As the ordinary people, we see all their efforts going to support, help, bail out and bring leniency for the big guys and the rest of us can go to hell, go to jail or go out marching. At the end of the day, these two parties will do deals with each other. The Government has a junior Minister on this side of the House who will back it up very nicely. Shame on Fianna Fáil. It really ought to be called out on this one. Obviously, shame on the Minister of State, Deputy English, and his Government but the people on this side of the House who are trying to hide, go for cover and pretend they are the heroes of the Irish people really need to be called out. I will leave at that. I hope we get another change to debate this further next week.

9:05 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom mo chomhbhrón a dhéanamh le muintir an iar-Thaoisigh, Liam Cosgrave, a fuair bás inniu. Go ndéana Dia trócaire air agus ar dheis lámh Dé go raibh a anam uasal dílis. Beidh deis ag Teachtaí a gcomhbhrón a dhéanamh amach anseo. I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Photo of Joan CollinsJoan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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I spoke last night. I am here listening to the debate tonight.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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As there is no representative from the Government side present who has not spoken, I call Deputy Thomas Byrne of Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Ar son pháirtí Fhianna Fáil, ba mhaith liom ár gcomhbhrón a dhéanamh le muintir Liam Cosgrave.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Beidh deis ann amárach é sin a dhéanamh.

Photo of Thomas ByrneThomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Bríd Smith, who, unfortunately, is not with us, forgets that this legislation resulted not from any pact among conservative parties but from an all-party Dáil committee. It is important legislation in this regard. From the activities in the street, illegal activities in some cases, and to legitimate peaceful protests - I was part of a couple of them in my constituency - this legislation has come to try to solve the problem and bring peace and resolution to the situation that, by and large, most people can accept, agree and live with. I know some people on the left flank of politics will be disappointed if it means less protest, but what we want is a sustainable funding mechanism for water in this country, fairness for people and to give people a bit of a break in terms of what they have to pay. The problem with water charges the last time was that it was the straw that broke the camel's back. It was just one thing after another imposed by the previous Government throughout the period of austerity and people simply could not afford it. This is a way of solving this problem and trying to bring the country together and look after everybody, from the poorest to the richest, with everybody giving their share to society. That is what this legislation is about.

I will concentrate my remarks on the major interaction I would have had with Irish Water, which was during last summer and which related to the water outage at the Staleen water treatment plant in Donore, County Meath. This treatment plant covers a wide area encompassing all of Drogheda, south Louth and all of east Meath as far as Ashbourne and Ratoath and even as far as Kilbride and a lot of rural areas near Navan, including as far up as Skryne. The water outage that occurred at the plant had a devastating effect on this major region of approximately 90,000 people during the summer. People literally could not get a drink of water in some cases.

In other cases, I saw people coming from the River Nanny in Duleek after collecting water. Children were not washed for days, though I suppose we could live with that during the summer holidays, but that is what happened. This week, Irish Water produced a report, which is written by itself for some reason, about what happened. Perhaps it can give the history lesson, but I am not satisfied that this will end here and the report that Irish Water has issued describing the history of what happened during the summer will end with that. Somebody independent needs to examine this because a number of issues which arise from this incident.

The most positive thing to happen during the crisis was that, in a system which is demarcated by Berlin walls between counties where the water system is concerned, where the Louth system does not meet the Meath system, even in adjoining housing estates, avenues were discovered to connect the different systems. It was discovered that Ashbourne could be connected to the Dublin network. There was a possibility of connecting Ardcath and Garretstown and Louth to Meath. It worried me that these discoveries were made almost by accident or by engineers who happened to have corporate memory or knowledge from county councils a few years ago. There did not seem to be anything on file about how to deal with the issues that arose and how these opportunities might arise, or what the map of the network was. This did not seem to be readily available. In the case of connecting Ashbourne to the Dublin supply, it was a case of one engineer remembering and copping onto it. Fair play to him since he saved a number of days' hardship for many people by remembering that but it was very ad hoc, and nothing seemed to be in place globally. Things were found out on a very ad hocbasis.

I would like there to be more focus by Irish Water and the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment on the opportunities that can arise. Irish Water would have been sold as an effort to connect the grid for water supply between counties. That is what it was sold as and I do not know what effort has gone into actually achieving that, which is a worry. Another worry, which is mentioned in Irish Water's report, are the circumstances in which it was unable to gain access to the source of the problem with the pipe for almost a day. Irish Water was prevented by the owner of the field from accessing the source of the problem. It is mentioned a number of times in the report as a case of Irish Water not appropriately closing a previous burst pipe in that field. As I understand it, what actually happened is that a particular individual was not paid what he was owed by Irish Water. While there was a massive inconvenience to the rest of the area, Irish Water was prevented from going on-site and it was its own fault, as it has said in the report.

We need a full investigation into how Irish Water handles these issues. Even if Irish Water it says the pipe was not appropriately closed off, while it does not say what the issue was, somebody needs to look at it and the Department needs to haul representatives of Irish Water in to ask what they are doing. It is outrageous. If someone had been able to get into the field on that day, perhaps Irish Water would have been able to fix it. There were a number of failed attempts to fix it, but it was prevented from going into the field for a considerable period. Irish Water says that was its fault. I want the Government to look at this and to bring in Irish Water. The Oireachtas committee should also examine the issue. If that is happening there, it could be happening in many other places. When we met Irish Water on the day, it said it was its fault. It has said it here too. That is not good enough. Where else is this happening and where else could it cause a major problem?

What improvements could be made to the network? A number of issues have been examined over the years, including connecting the Dunshaughlin water supply to Ratoath. Local politicians have called for that for a considerable period. That happened to a small extent during the crisis but if the proper pipework was laid - and I believe the cost was very low - this would have a dramatic effect on insulating particular areas, Ratoath in that case, from problems that might arise and protect them from outages in other parts of the network.

I have nothing but praise for the actions of staff of Irish Water and the local authority that I met on the ground but the report illustrates difficulties that they had. This issue arose towards a weekend. The pipe burst on a Thursday, the issue continued into Friday and the emergency response only started on Saturday. It was the following Saturday before every house was finally reconnected to the network. It was difficult to source the equipment that was needed to deal with the emergency because it happened close to a weekend. That was a major problem that needs to be looked at. If something happens at the weekend, we think it is bad enough that we cannot ring someone to find out what is happening or citizens have to ring an 1890 number to get information from a call centre. The officials on the ground also had tremendous difficulty accessing necessary equipment because it was a weekend. That needs to be examined by the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment.

It is disgraceful that the loss of income suffered by many small businesses as a result of this crisis and a lack of water has not been dealt with in this report and there needs to be a Government response to it. Cafés, hairdressers and factories had to close because of a lack of water. I was talking to a major employer who had to close because of the situation. In one case, a major employer was able to stay open because tankers of water were provided for the premises, very belatedly in that case, and there were communications difficulties. The manager simply would not have known who to ring in this sort of situation. Who knows who to ring in those cases? It was the holiday period, so many people who would ordinarily be responsible were, through no fault of their own, on holidays and other people stepped into their shoes and did tremendous work. Nothing has been given by Irish Water in the form of a concession that compensation would be provided for loss of earnings. These are small businesses on the whole, and some larger ones, that have paid their commercial water charges for a considerable period, which are hugely out of pocket. They include hairdressers, launderettes, cafés and so on that had to close for that period.

I am glad that Irish Water has issued a report. I cannot dispute it as a history of what happened at the time but it is not complete and it needs to be looked at by the Government and probably an Oireachtas committee, because there are certainly lessons to be learned from this that could be applied to other parts of the country. Fixes could be implemented now that would give us a much more robust water supply and not have it depend on one particular line from one particular water plant. I do not know if the Minister of State is in a position to comment on that when he is summing up, but I would like to see further action on it and for it not to be the final word for the citizens of the region or a water company on such a major crisis, unprecedented in my time in politics.

9:15 pm

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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One has to ask if this Government will ever listen to the will of the people. Here we go again. The Government is so determined and desperate, as is Fianna Fáil, to introduce water charges through the back door that we now have this legislation that is not only not credible but deliberately leaves the option of extending and increasing charges for any future Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael Government.

I want to address the excess water usage myth or claim. No evidence exists that we have any deliberate domestic water wastage in this State. Irish Water's own data show that household water consumption in this State is one of the lowest rates in the OECD. Irish families use, on average, 123 litres per person per day, which is much lower than people living in England, Sweden or Italy.

How does the Government plan to measure excess usage if 42% of households do not have a meter? That is not outlined in the Bill. Does it plan to charge one household for excess usage and not its neighbour? How will that work?

The Minister states that there is an allowance for households of five people or more. Does that mean that a person living alone will be able to use the same amount of water as a family of four? That is not explained either.

We all know that 40% of treated water is wasted as a result of leaking pipes in the public system. Given that 42% of households do not have meters, how will the Minister determine whether there is excessive water usage by a household or whether water is leaking from a pipe in the public system unless, of course, the he is allowing for a future Government to extend the roll-out of domestic water meters for the remainder of the households? Everybody knows that is the plan. The Government just does not have the backbone to say it. The Government thinks it will con people all over again.

That is exactly what the Government wanted and it is what Fianna Fáil wanted. All that stopped them was people power. People power ground them to a halt. It is as if they have learned no lessons from that. This Bill is another pathetic attempt on the part of the Government and Fianna Fáil, and their wishy-washy way around it, to reintroduce charges after their previous attempt failed dismally and the Right2Water movement brought it down.

My party and I will have no hand, act or part in supporting this Bill. The Government should start to acknowledge the will of the people.

9:25 pm

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Cheann Comhairle as ucht an deis chun labhairt.

As outlined by many of my colleagues here tonight, Sinn Féin will be opposing this legislation and all it stands for. The Government is again rejecting the will of the people. It is ignoring the mass movement of people who went out onto the streets to protest against this unfair charge. It is undemocratic for a Government to do that and it needs to be challenged.

My party's spokesperson, Deputy Ó Broin, has rightly called out this legislation as the latest instalment of the long and sorry saga of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael's water charges regime, a regime that has been rejected by many citizens in this country. As we know, Fianna Fáil first put water charges on the table and Fine Gael enthusiastically took up the baton when its turn came. All of this could have been avoided. If the Government had secured an exemption under Article 9.4 of the water services directive, we could have funded water services directly and fairly from general taxation.

The establishment of Irish Water was simply a means of continuing with a failed strategy of underinvestment in this critical public service. From being a Deputy and, indeed, a councillor beforehand, I am aware that many of the pipes date from Victorian times. These should be replaced first. That is common sense, not rocket science. Why could the Government not see the need to fix the pipes before coming up with this ridiculous legislation and charges? It should fix the pipes first. It is ridiculous that the Government has ignored all of that.

It was never about conservation and a growing body of research has clearly demonstrated that domestic water charges do not result in long-term reduction in domestic water usage. The people clearly saw through the lies and spin. They mobilised in their tens of thousands across this State - citizens, communities and trade unions - supported by political parties. They forced Fianna Fáil into embarrassing flip-flop after flip-flop on this issue. They called for the public ownership of water to be enshrined in the Constitution and for the funding of water services through general taxation and increased investment to meet the level of service need. They called for the abolition of water charges and metering and the replacement of Irish Water with a publicly accountable board. This has been the biggest quango ever set up. Millions of euro have that could have gone into hospitals, schools and infrastructure were spent on consultants' fees. That makes no sense, and never will.

Only two of the key demands to which I refer were upheld in the recommendations of the expert group on the funding of water services. That group recommended that domestic water services should be funded, in the main, through general taxation and that public ownership of water should be enshrined in the Constitution. As we all know, that relates back to 1919 and the First Dáil, which stated quite clearly that the natural resources of this country belong to its people. That should always be protected. The special Oireachtas report also includes a recommendation for the constitutional protection of the public water system. The expert group made a number of other recommendations, such as equity of treatment for those in group water schemes and an ambitious programme of water conservation.

Those in group water schemes in rural communities are not being treated equitably. They are not even getting a look in here, and that matter has not been addressed. Those rural communities are being abandoned. This is another instance of their being abandoned by the Government, which has not thought about putting anything forward in that regard and which does not even think in terms of equality.

I fail to understand how the majority of these recommendations, for which there was widespread support, are not reflected in the Bill. There is nothing in the Bill regarding a referendum on the public ownership of Irish Water. A Bill on a referendum was passed by this House almost a year ago, and that seems to have been ignored. That legislation has not made it through Committee Stage and it is becoming increasingly clear that the Government is dragging its heels on the matter. We have seen many other items of legislation rushed through this Dáil. We have seen flaws in legislation and yet we see this crucial Bill, which relates to the need for a referendum, being ignored and left on a shelf somewhere. It will not go away and nor will we. As a party, we will stand with the citizens on this issue.

The Minister has indicated that the Government is still awaiting advice from the Attorney General. In such circumstances, one cannot but ask whether, if this was a priority issue for the Government, would we still be waiting, almost a year later, for the Bill to proceed through formal Committee Stage.

I fail to understand the delay in addressing the recommendation relating to group water schemes. Those schemes are not being treated in a fair manner. From my constituency offices throughout County Offaly and in north Tipperary, I am aware that this is an issue of concern. The people there feel strongly that the Government is neither listening to them nor behaving in an equitable manner.

I cannot understand the rationale for further delaying the establishment of the working group until after this legislation is passed. The Government has had a year to address the matter. It is a huge issue in rural communities. I will continue to represent and agitate on behalf of those communities. We have working class people in rural Ireland, we have people who are struggling and we have people who get up for work every day. However, they are being ignored. Their needs are not being met and they are not being represented by the Government. They continue to pay twice for water.

The data provided to the committee on this issue suggests that a relatively small amount of money would address this problem but it is important that the Government clearly commits to this recommendation in the report. Group schemes receive an annual subsidy of only €70 per household but that does not cover the full cost of accessing water supply. Equity would require the State to cover the full cost of group water scheme users in accessing that water supply. The Minister has stated that he can find the €170 million required for refunds. It would cost a fraction of that amount to address this issue should the Government choose to make it a priority.

This Bill, like many other items of legislation that have been brought before the current Dáil, is seriously flawed. It appears to be the case that if there is excess usage, there will be a metric charge depending on how much is used. Given that a significant proportion of households do not have meters, this creates an absurd situation. Many of my colleagues have addressed this.

If we pass this legislation, there could be two houses side by side using the same amount of water and yet one could be hit with a charge while the other may not. How is that fair? How can that be justified? How can it be common sense?

There are issues with the medical exemption and it is not clear how that will operate in practice. The legislation also fails to provide sufficient supports and assistance to those who have identified leaks on their property.

This Bill is not comprehensive and fails to put this matter to bed once and for all. Indeed, it ignores the will of thousands of citizens throughout this country. It is proof that the water charges agenda pursued by Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael is not dead. It may only affect a relatively small percentage of households today, but what about tomorrow and the day after that? Do we trust Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael to confine charges to excessive use? It is my firm belief that once the infrastructure for domestic water charging remains in place, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will eventually extend the charge out to growing numbers of people. For that reason, Sinn Féin will strongly oppose this Bill and will work to ensure the problems with this legislation are fully exposed, should this Bill proceed.

It is also time for this Government to recognise rural water schemes. They are being ignored here and, as a rural Deputy, I put the Government on notice that I will continue to raise this matter. I urge the Government to act on it.

9:35 pm

Photo of Pat BuckleyPat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It seems like a very long time ago that Sinn Féin started to raise the alarm about water charges and water privatisation. We had always maintained vigilance against the creeping privatisation agenda of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael but we rightly saw in the economic chaos caused by the mismanagement of the economy and banking system what some would relish as an opportunity to asset strip the State and accelerate that process. The political fellow travellers of the Irish right in Europe, which designed a bailout programme to save their own corrupt banking systems also saw this opportunity and proceeded with even greater gusto than the Government at the time or others could have imagined. We were told that water charges were no longer prohibited, as claimed by Fianna Fáil a few years earlier, but an actual imperative for the Irish State and that anything less would be deeply irresponsible. To please our European master who had so graciously allowed us to do penance for sins we had not committed and to avoid the shame of being labelled by such paragons of virtue as defaulters, we were forced to introduce an entirely nonsensical, unfair double taxation on a basic human right.

The asset stripping had already begun in earnest and now our water services were on the auction block too. Many in the political elite or media doubted in public our claims that this was the start of privatisation. They did this shamelessly even as bin services across our capital city provided the perfect model for anyone who cared to look. The classic tactics of privatisation were on display- run down services, introduce charges, create a revenue stream and then sell to whatever cartel will take the service off one's hands. The rapidly disimproving service to bin customers was also clear evidence of the flaws in this kind of behaviour. Later we would see bin charges hiked, workers mistreated and even lockouts.

Sinn Féin and others were primed to mount a campaign of opposition. Despite our readiness to oppose this and our absolute understanding of the agenda of privatisation behind it, even we were taken aback by the overwhelming opposition by the public to this move. The Irish people utterly rejected these charges. Many working-class communities, especially those who had put faith in the ever unfaithful Labour Party, simmered with a palpable anger compounded by cuts at every other turn. An austerity Government which had taken so much was not going to be charging people for every drop of water, whether to make a cup of tea, bathe the children or do a load of washing. The spirit which saw families waiting at their driveways to launch their rubbish into passing bin lorries in defiance of the bin charges was ignited again, not just in Dublin but all across the entire State. Community organisations against water charges sprang up everywhere. People who had not known one end of a placard from another threw themselves into the action and became known as water warriors.

However, this was about so much more than water. It was about working-class people coming together and finally say "enough is enough". They had taken so much and had borne too heavy a load for too long. They had worn the green jersey only to discover it was all a myth. They would not let the Government take the water from the taps as well. They faced every slur from the political elite and media imaginable, including comparisons to ISIS and to feral animals. The Dáil debased itself more than ever in recent memory in its discussion of this amazing grassroots movement of mothers, fathers, sons and daughters. There are quite a few in this House who should be truly ashamed of the slurs they cast on the working-class people who organised the resistance, particularly those who, from ivory towers, sought to send children to prison.

Most shocking of all is that the warriors won. They gave Fine Gael one almighty bloody nose at the ballot box, having pounded the streets of Ireland for months. They nearly drove the Labour Party out of existence, though really the blame for that lies at its own door. They made water charges the point past which Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil could not - try as they might - go. They did our country proud, when we had been so shamed by the actions of the few. A risen people took what the Government would not give and here we are, talking about refunds of water charges. This Government would do well to let that really sink in and know when it is beaten. What it needs to do now is scrap the whole plan for good. Water charges are not coming back, not in the way the Government tried before nor by stealth. We know that is the Government's plan. It has not changed. The right never does. The Government thinks it will eventually get rid of all the responsibilities of state and free itself from doing anything that goes beyond helping its friends in high places to make more money and step on those under them.

That is why we demand that Irish water be protected as a public utility, always in public hands, run by public bodies and paid for by public money raised from progressive and fair taxation. The privatisation agenda for water is dead and the Government must now act as the people have demanded. That is what Deputies are elected to do. We are in here to listen to the people and to represent their views. I appeal to the Government to bring forward the Thirty-fifth Amendment of the Constitution (Water in Public Ownership) (No. 2) Bill 2016 and enshrine water in public ownership. It must get its ducks in a line and make it happen. Let the Dáil vote on that Bill and then put the question to the people. Let the people show the Government what they want. Perhaps the Government is afraid of what the people want. Does the Government finally want to admit that privatisation is the endgame as it sees it? Let us have it out tonight and admit that. It is not fair on the people that we are supposed to represent. Regardless, that ship has sailed. The people have spoken loudly and clearly on the streets, in their communities and at the ballot box. The Government must give up any pretence that its agenda has not been soundly rejected by the people. It must put this issue in the hands of the people in order that they can ensure our water services never fall into the grubby hands of the Government's friends.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I am happy to speak on this very important topic this evening. Like many of my colleagues, I was very much opposed to the introduction of water charges in this country. I welcome the fact that this Bill provides for the discontinuation of the domestic water charges fiasco that was set up under the 2014 Water Services Act. It also sets out provisions for the refunding of payments made to Irish Water by a large number of taxpayers.

I am embarrassed that we have had to reach this point. Had the Government listened to the people of Ireland we would not now have to refund €173 million, thus creating a further deficit of at least €5 million for administration costs. I also note that the Government recently announced that there would be eight referenda over the next two years, yet the long-promised referendum on Irish Water and the fear of its privatisation has not even been mentioned. This is very disappointing. I recently responded to a letter to the editor of a hugely popular local magazine in south-west Cork, The Opinion, in which a concerned citizen raised the issue of the payment of water charges through general taxation. This is a huge problem to my constituents, many of whom supply their own water. The plan to pay for water through general taxation will now mean a double charge for these people and for people on group water schemes. It is only fair that these people be able to avail of a tax-free allowance for the money that they have outlaid. I understand that this would not fully compensate those on group schemes but it would help in some small way to ensure they will not be hit by double taxation. This is a Bill that people will not be able to cope with. In west Cork we have seen the closure of our banks, our Garda stations, and many other local services. In addition to this, the previous Government hit us with property tax and the universal social charge as well as the loss of carer's allowance, debt grants, child benefit and many other payments. At the time I warned the Government that the introduction of water bills would be one step too far for the ordinary people of this island. As we know, however, the previous Government put people's concerns into second place. It did not listen, thus leading to the biggest movement of people across the country shouting "stop". They eventually won through. As a public representative, I hope that those who were charged will get back their payments.

9:45 pm

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It may be construed by some that I have a conflict of interest as owner of a company that repairs and replaces water brakes and has been doing so for the past 50 or 60 years.

I am amazed that in all of the debates over water there has been no talk at all of the people in rural areas who have their own water supply and who have received little or no assistance to organise their own gravity supply, deep well pumps, or pumps to pump water out of low-lying streams and rivers. They have had to bore wells and improvise in whatever way they could and use whatever ingenuity they had to bring water into their homes. I feel that these people have to be recognised and have to get some help to in some way ensure that they will always have a safe and adequate water supply. The people in these rural areas have had to put in high specification septic tanks at a savage cost. The septic tanks also had to get planning permission, which was not always easily had. So many people in rural Ireland, including many in my own county, have septic tanks and their own water supply yet there is no mention of them at all in this whole debate over water. That is not fair, but then the people of rural Ireland are used to being neglected in so many ways at this stage.

It is very unfair when people like John Moran say that the people of rural Ireland are a burden to the State. The people of rural Ireland have always paid their way to ensure they live to the highest standard possible and I do not agree with those who claim they are a burden. If the critics of rural Ireland had their way then nobody would be allowed to get planning permission and there would be no one-off houses. If these people got their way everybody in rural Ireland would have to move to Dublin or other urban areas. What kind of mess would we have then? It is hard enough to house the people already there. We are now hearing mad rumours that planning permission is going to become harder to get when this new report comes in before the end of the year. There are rumours that the report is already there but that people are afraid to bring it out. It will be much harder to get planning permission in rural areas. What will happen then? Do we bring everybody in to urban areas like Dublin? The traffic jams will be worse. Every morning we wake up and hear on the 7 o'clock news that someone else has been shot or stabbed in Dublin. People are down on top of each other there. They are not able to cater for those who are already there, never mind bringing more people in.

It is a constant battle for people in rural Ireland to get their rights. It is a constant battle to get the road done. At this point I will thank the Minister, Deputy Ring, for providing the money for rural improvement schemes for 27 groups of people in Kerry. Those people are now very grateful, and I am grateful on their behalf, though I remind the House that they have been waiting since 2009. I also remind the Minister that there are still 100 people on the priority list and another 500 waiting to be assessed. That may give the House the full extent of the problem. People in rural Ireland are every bit as entitled to good roads to their door as people in Dublin 4. These are not private roads, as the Department has claimed, they are public roads that were never taken over by the local authority. These people pay their way but they are getting left behind all the time. All they are looking for is the planning permission to be allowed build a house, with most of them providing their own water and septic tank.

I will give the House one example of our strict planning laws. Areas around the towns of Killarney and Tralee are now deemed to be under what is known as "urban generated pressure". That means that anyone who tries to come out of the town and buy a site to build a house for themselves will be denied planning permission. This is also affecting the local young fellow a hundred yards away from where he wants to buy the site. As his parents do not own the site, he will not be allowed to get planning permission either. That is what is happening. Everyday we talk about housing here; we talked about it this morning. These people would build houses themselves if they could get the planning permission. It is sad to see this happening.

We also have the other extreme. Five families on the N72 into Killarney were refused planning permission to come out onto a perfectly straight road, a mile long and straight as the barrel of a gun. They will not be allowed out onto that road, which is very unfair. Despite the fact that the engineers from Kerry County Council gave them the go-ahead, some regulation signed into law by our present Taoiseach back when he was a Minister in 2012, directed the NRA, or the TII as they are now known, not to allow permission in cases like this.

People in rural areas who have their own water supply and septic tanks are not getting any recognition. I am glad that Deputy Nolan mentioned the group schemes. Very little recognition is given to those in group schemes. It is impossible to get an extension of a group water scheme or of a group sewerage scheme. No consideration is given to those in group schemes. If they go to the local authority to seek an extension of a group scheme, they are told to forget about it. There is no funding for those schemes. These are honest, good people who want to live like everyone else, but they are being denied services and hit very hard in this way.

As I said about the roads, if we have decent roads, if one Minister got his way, no fellow would be able to drive on them. He is trying to deny a whole group of people in rural Ireland the right to go to the local village or the local pub and have just one pint and a half pint. I hope the Deputies in this Chamber and those who are listening to this debate outside it will not vote for that Bill if it comes before us. I certainly hope that Minister does not get his way on that Bill.

9:55 pm

Photo of Maurice QuinlivanMaurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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It is very disappointing that we are having this debate a year after 90 of us were elected to this Chamber by the people on foot of the Right2Change-Right2Water campaign. That was probably the biggest mass mobilisation of people on the streets that I have ever seen, apart from probably 1981 hunger strike. In my city of Limerick we had rallies of 10,000 to 15,000 people on the streets. Communities all across the city and county came out onto the streets, and some villages in County Limerick had, as was described to me by local residents, the first ever protest in their areas. It was a massive issue. We are here a year later, despite the fact that 90 candidates were elected on the position of abolishing water charges.

I am not sure which of the speeches the Taoiseach made today was the most offensive, whether it was the comments he made on water or those he made on the attempt by the people of Catalonia to have a referendum to determine their own future. It would not be the first time that Fine Gael has done that. I am aware that my own council disgraced itself in 1930s when Barcelona fell to Franco's people and it sent him flowers and congratulations. We all know what happened after that: Franco's massacre of people on streets.

With respect to the Taoiseach's comments today about the people who protested about water charges, he should not go there. The campaign was not just about water. It was about people moving on from austerity. People were fed up with what the way everything went. We all saw the battering that the Labour Party - its members are not even present for this debate - got in the election, a deserved one as far as I am concerned. It abandoned its own core people. Its members were elected on foot of promises. We saw more of that on the streets today when students asked the party's members to leave the demonstration over the issue of tuition fees.

We have a democratic mandate to abolish water charges. Why are we debating this issue a year after the election when we should be talking about other important issues. During the past month, 902 people were on hospital trolleys in the University Hospital Limerick in my constituency. Those are the issues we need to be talking about and on which we need to have special debates. I tabled a Topical Issue matter on that issue for tomorrow and hopefully it will be selected.

It perplexes me as to why the Government will not agree to have a referendum on water charges. My colleagues have also spoken about that.We will probably have a referendum year next year when we will have six of seven referenda, important ones, including the repeal of the eighth amendment, which I will be supporting. Why can we not have a referendum to keep water services in public ownership? This is what we all believe in. I think it was Deputy Ó Laoghaire who said that he does not believe that the Minister of State's Government wants to privatise water services, but others do. This is what has happened in other countries. It starts with a Bill being introduced. Water will be one of the most sought after natural resources in the world. It will be a commodity that will be very profitable and ordinary people will be forced to pay for it.

Ireland has very little water poverty at present, and we want to keep it that way. We will campaign to ensure that. One of the first campaigns in which I got involved was in Limerick in 1990 when we were campaigned against water charges. A picture carried in the Limerick Leaderunder a section on memories from the past showed us protesting outside City Hall at that time, burning water bills that had been issued. Believe it or not, my nephew, who was 18 months old at the time, was summoned to court. Obviously, the judge agreed that a 18 month old child should not have been summoned to court. There was a mass mobilisation of the people in Limerick in 1990s and there was another one a number of years ago. People voted in the election in 2016 on the basis of water charges. They elected us to this House and they would not expect us to be still talking about water charges a year later.

Many people marched because they wanted a referendum on water charges and to keep water services in the ownership of the people. It might not be the Minister of State's Government that wants to privatise water services, but the people are definitely worried that it could happen down the line.

My council in Limerick has had a very good record of dealing with water leaks. The much quoted statistic is that more than 40% of the leaks have been fixed. The council did good work on tackling the leaking pipes during recent years before Irish Water came on the scene. The council staff had considerable experience, they were very good at their job and able to fix the pipes. I will give an example, however, of where that has not worked recently. Many people will be familiar with the Hyde Road in Limerick. A person heading towards the city centre from the west side of the city would go up the Hyde Road. We were told for many years that this road always floods in heavy rain and that nothing could be done to fix it. We got the council eventually to fix it, but the people who first came out did not have the experience to know what the problem was. I took a picture of them trying to fix the leak and put it up on Facebook. I was contacted by a former council official who said that from his knowledge of when he worked in the water services, they should have been 15 ft away from they were working and they would have done the job properly. The people who were contracted from Irish Water did not have the skills or the knowledge of where the pipes were leaking. They said they fixed the problem, but it turned out that they did not. When it next rained a few days later, people's homes were flooded again, but then it was just a working-class area in Limerick and it had been allowed to flood for 40-odd years. When the council did listen to what I and other people told them, namely, that they needed to move and work 20 ft across the road, Irish Water officials came out and listened to the people who had the knowledge, and who unfortunately do not work for Irish Water, who told them where to go to fix the pipe. That has solved the problem in that area where there had been flooding for years.

I was at the Pride rally in Limerick last July when I got a phone call to say that there was flooding in Bengal Terrace in the city. I thought there could not be flooding there because it not near a river. It is on a hill up by the graveyard. I went to visit the homes and about a dozen of them had been flooded, all with different levels of damage. Those people are still not back in their homes. Some of them left last week as the work is just about to commence. Irish Water was very late on the scene. Limerick council emergency staff came out to help those people get accommodation. Some of what happened was shocking because there was nobody from Irish Water that we could talk to on that Saturday. People who were homeless were presenting at hotels. These were ordinary working people who woke up one morning to find their homes had been flooded. One elderly lady had been sleeping in a downstairs room and she was lucky not to drown. Some of those people had to stay in emergency accommodation in the local hotel, which unfortunately would not take the booking the council had made for them because they did not have the credit card in the name of the council and there was nobody to talk to in Irish Water.

Some of them had to stay in emergency accommodation, which was the local hotel. Unfortunately, however, the hotel would not fulfil the booking the council had made for them because they did not have the credit card in the name of the council and there was no one available to speak to in Irish Water. I rang the hotel twice and the hotel told the council that I should not be ringing it. The council official then went out to the hotel herself with her own credit card and offered to pay for it. She also had the council's credit card with her but the hotel would not take it. It was a big mess and the people ended up having to go to a different hotel. We got them into that hotel and the council official, who was a brilliant star on the day, ensured the people got into the actual rooms before she left. She went beyond the call of duty.

The reason I raise the issue of Bengal Terrace is that Irish Water is not accepting any responsibility for the flooding. A pipe burst outside one of the doors and there was a massive rush of water in through the door which destroyed a number of homes. Irish Water is refusing to accept responsibility because, it says, the pipe never broke before. How is that logical? The pipe never broke before so it is not Irish Water's problem. These people are still waiting to get back into their homes. The Minister of State knows how long it can take to fix up a home that has been flooded.

I come back to what I said at the outset, which is one of the main reasons people marched, would not pay their water charges and sought to defeat them. People rightly believed that perhaps not this Government but a Government to come would seek to privatise what is a valuable resource. That is a huge concern that has not been addressed in the Bill. Why will the Government not give us a referendum? I ask the Minister of State again if the Government will consider giving us one. As I said, people marched in their thousands. These were the largest demonstrations that many younger people will have seen. We elected a number of Deputies to this Dáil to abolish water charges and we have not respected their democratic wish.

10:05 pm

Photo of Martin KennyMartin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Water is one of those things in life that we cannot survive without. It is like air. If we do not have oxygen, we do not live. If we do not have water, we do not live. When people look to outer space and scientists look for life on planets that we cannot see with the naked eye, they look to see if there is water. It is fundamental to life and existence. From that point of view, it is logical that we should have it in abundance and free of charge. Most people would acknowledge this basic principle as being realistic, normal, acceptable and logical. Yet, we have a situation here in Ireland where, as Deputy Pearse Doherty told me earlier, houses are being flooded in Killybegs due to all the rain that fell this evening. We have that all over the country. There is so much water coming out of the sky on top of us that we are trying to deal with the floods. I appreciate that water has to be treated and pumped and that there is a cost involved, but there is not a huge scarcity of water in this country as there is in other countries. The problem is that water is being made into a commodity. That is the issue most people have.

The rural-urban divide is often involved when we speak about water, particularly in regard to group schemes. Some of the Deputies mentioned how people in rural parts of Ireland on group schemes are in a different place. I remember the first protests about water charges and the establishment of Irish Water. In Carrick-on-Shannon, Manorhamilton and many other places in rural parts of Ireland where I attended those protests, most of those who were there were on group schemes. In a sense, they were already paying for their water. Communities had come together, formed a committee and applied to the local authority to get a fund to put pipes in the ground and bring water to their homes because the State simply refused to do it. They had no other option but to do it that way and the system meant that a charge was placed on each household. In a sense, when we think of what was provided in urban areas, that was unfair, but it was an act of necessity that brought them to that situation. Yet, those same people were out complaining and protesting against Irish Water. Many of them had their banners from various group schemes around the country. They knew that this was a slippery slope and that it would go out of the control of the community and into the control of a corporate entity. That is the problem people have with it.

Many people speak about how group schemes are different and how people in rural areas have meters at their houses. I am on a group scheme and I have a meter outside the door of the house. To the next house, however, it is the most of a kilometre and the next person after that is probably another kilometre away. In rural parts of Ireland, it is an entirely different scenario. Metering is used as a means to measure the water, find the leaks and see where it is all moving around.

Let me give an example. A number of years ago there was a huge problem with pipes leaking in the group scheme that I am on. The pipes were first put in some time in the early 1960s and it was probably not done as professionally as it would be nowadays. The kind of pipework was certainly not as good as it would be nowadays. There was an awful lot of leaks and bursts, particularly on roads where there was soft ground with heavy lorries rolling across them. The pipes were always bursting. A number of years ago, the local group scheme applied for a grant from the council to get the scheme upgraded. One of the conditions of the grant was that sluice valves, meters, various control points, pumps and checks etc. would have to be installed. Everyone in the community on the scheme had to pay towards it.

In a sense, that was a microcosm of the whole country because that is the problem we have in the whole of Ireland. We have a massive scheme, if one likes, to provide water and an awful lot of the water is leaking and the scheme is failing and having huge problems. When we went back to the people in the community and said we would try to solve the problem, take care of the leaks and sort it out, we said the first thing we were going to do was lay new pipes across all of the area. We were going to sort everything out and it was an all-inclusive scheme. What if that committee had to go to the people on the group scheme and say the first thing it would do was install a meter and blame a particular person for the problem? That is how this Government got it so wrong when they invented Irish Water. It blamed the people for the problem. The consumer of the water is not the problem, but the provider. If the provider had to come out and say it would fix all the leaks, lay all the pipes and sort it all out, people would have had a greater understanding of what was going on. However, the Government made the fatal mistake of blaming people for what it was doing. That is the main reason so many people throughout Ireland were so adamant that Irish Water had to be stopped and got rid of.

I remember council meetings when we met people from Irish Water. They were telling us all they were going to do. This is interesting because in County Leitrim more people receive their water through group schemes than any other supply. All of those people were out protesting against it. When the issue came up as to what was going to happen, these group schemes were going to be left out on a limb. They were encouraged by councils and many others to come in under the auspices of the local authorities. Many did and were taken in charge by the local authorities just before Irish Water came on board. The reason was so that there would be some grant aid provided to help them upgrade the schemes.

I know many of those schemes. One of them is in Corraleehan, just outside of Ballinamore in County Leitrim. We get about ten calls a month because people have no water. The reason they have no water is that the pumps providing the water in that scheme are overheating, burning out and tripping due to the number of leaks. People then have to reset the pumps and they keep doing it. The simple solution is to mend the leaks in the pipes but Irish Water will not do that. Its latest proposal is to replace the pumps. It will spend taxpayers' money putting in new pumps to pump water that will leak and those pumps will burn out again. This continuous waste is really getting under people's skin.

I remember the day I was listening to the News at One when the spokesperson from Irish Water said it had already spent €80 million on consultants. That was a pivotal turning point. People wondered what the hell was going on. They could not get water to their homes. At least when they had control of it themselves they were able to sort out the situation. However, now they had this bureaucratic mess. It was another layer of bureaucracy on top of the problem that was already there and it was not solving the problem but adding to it.

The reality for most people is that they want a service provided. It was interesting to listen to the Deputies from the Rural Independent Group speaking about rural parts of Ireland being neglected and left behind.

All of that is certainly true. Key to solving the problems of rural Ireland is ensuring we get infrastructure into it. We speak of broadband, roads and all these elements, but one part of the infrastructure is water supply. For example, if a large company decided to locate in one of the rural counties in the country, a number of years ago it would have approached a local authority. It is interesting because in County Leitrim we have a company called Masonite on the banks of the Shannon and a big factor in running the company is a vast supply of water. If that or another company like it came to another area seeking an assurance from the local authority that it could have a large supply of water for the business, the local authority could not give that guarantee. It would have to go back to Irish Water and that company would not give a hoot. The first thing it would do is employ some consultants and pay them a fortune to decide how the process would work. That is the kind of nonsense going on. When we remove control from local areas and give it to a big conglomerate, there are problems. That is the mistake being made by the Government throughout this process.

It is interesting that today we saw how the Government will be taken to the European Court in a bid to force the recovery of the €13 billion Apple tax because it has not succeeded yet in recovering that money. It is clear to all of us - let us call a spade a spade - that the money has not been recovered because the Government does not want to do it. It is embarrassed about how this came about in the first place. This company was evading tax in Ireland and a blind eye was being turned. Those in Europe tapped people on the shoulder, saying we were telling them about all the problems in the country but we were allowing this company away with €13 billion. If that were given to local authorities to fix leaks and look after the water supply around the country, how much would it do? It would make an immense difference. We must get real in what we are doing tonight. If we are interested in sorting out this problem, the money must be put into it.

10:15 pm

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Níl raibh sé i gceist agam labhairt faoi seo anocht so níl mé go hiomlán ullamh. Bhí sé i gceist agam labhairt amárach. Bhí mé ag iarraidh cinntiú go mbeadh an deis agam mo ladar a chur isteach sa scéal seo. Níor labhair mé chomh minic agus ba chóir dom faoi táillí uisce. Thar na 15 bliana a raibh mé sa Teach bhí mé gafa leis na feachtais agus le bheith istigh anseo ag cur i gcoinne reachtaíocht ar taillí uisce. Le bliain anuas níl an oiread sin ráite agam mar measaim gur léir don domhan ar fad an phraiseach a rinneadh nuair a bunaíodh Uisce Éireann nó Irish Water. Táim fós ag déileáil leis sin agus is sampla de an reachtaíocht seo. Is trua go bhfuil an reachtaíocht seo ag déileáil le haisíocaíochtaí ar thaobh amháin agus, ar an taobh eile, go bhfuil sé ag iarraidh réimeas nua a thabhairt isteach a bheadh in ann táillí a ghearradh ar siúd atá, dar leis, ag úsáid an iomarca uisce. Is é sin an bunfadhb a bhí leis na táillí faoi réimeas Uisce Éireann sa chéad dul síos. Luafaidh mé a lán eile faoi nuair atá mé ag tabhairt faoi seo. Ag deireadh thiar thall, tá praiseach á déanamh arís.

They are making another mess. Legislation that seeks to repay charges forced upon society should be welcome but what has happened? As usual, where there is an opportunity, the Government and bureaucrats have slipped in a negative element. That element in this case is exactly what the committee debated back and forth. Anybody involved with the committee dealing with this matter saw how parties took up totally different positions until the vote came about. While people were voting, they were changing their mind. Some members did not even know what way to vote. In many ways, this is like every attempt made to introduce water charges, whether it was in the 1980s or 1990s in different councils. They made a mess of it and they have done it again in this instance. That is why I will oppose this legislation.

I am mindful there are charges for excessive use in this legislation but how can we define excessive use? Anybody who read the transcripts of the committee, sat through the meetings or engaged, as I did towards the end when I substituted for Deputy Ó Broin, one of our representatives, could see there was advice flying left, right and centre from the legal adviser on excessive use. The adviser argued this area could not be regulated but other legal advice appeared in the middle or the meeting, as the vote happened, so people changed their mind.

Ultimately, the regime has collapsed and Irish Water has been disgraced. We need to ensure now that proper funding for local authorities can be put in place. There must be proper funding to tackle the years or even decades of underinvestment in the pipes in this city and throughout the country. The problem with raw and treated sewage, including the scale expected to be treated by plants, must also be addressed. There will be a cost to the Exchequer regardless of whether we like it. There is a public health element and the Government should over the years have gone to Europe to ask for special funding to address our legacy. We had wooden or lead pipes, at least in this city. Anybody who lived in council houses, as I did, would remember the lead pipes that went under the stairs and swelled until they popped or cracked. A person might have had to fix those pipes at his or her own cost, whether it happened inside the house or outside. The pipes might have been split between two houses in most council houses in this city. The problem might have been in somebody else's property but it would have been shared with the neighbour.

There is also the matter of asbestos pipes. Even to this day, I cannot fathom why we have asbestos pipes that everybody knew about. We are told they are safe but they are only safe until they break. What happened in Louth only recently? The pipe broke and there was no talk of quickly replacing the full length of pipe. They tried to fix it and they made a mess of that as well. That was Irish Water. Deputy Munster was informed that the council in Louth was offered help from Dublin City Council, which has expertise in the area, but it was rejected. Irish Water denied that help was offered. People dealing with such matters day in and day out had the spare parts sitting in a depot in the city. They could have addressed the problem so people would not have been without water for a full week. If one is offered expertise, one usually takes it. It is suspected that Irish Water did not take the offer because it did not want to expose the fact that local authority workers in water works had the expertise and were knowledgeable. It would have shown up Irish Water. Instead, they went through the process of ordering special fittings from Belfast, saying how great they were to engineer the pieces over the weekend. Meanwhile, the parts were and still are sitting in a depot in this city. There were other leaks of a similar scale afterwards in Meath.

It has even been addressed in this city. In my own area of Bluebell there was a major fault, and a long time was spent dealing with it, but in comparison with what happened in Louth, it was quite quick. There are residual problems, because in the city there are lead pipes. When the pressure drops and goes up again, the lead expands and drops much quicker than in the asbestos pipes.

My colleagues, among others, mentioned the group water schemes. I admit I know absolutely nothing about them other than they exist. I have read the rural water newsletter, which comes in infrequently nowadays, to try to educate myself. I understand a little about them from friends of mine who have wells on their land in order that they can have some type of water. I have always thought that it was strange. Why should any citizen in this day and age have to drive a well into their ground to get clean water? Why are they not supplied with clean water by the State, with sewerage services at the other end? That is the job of the State. It has always been my opinion that the State should pay for the subsidy or the cost of group water schemes and that it should never have been a burden on rural dwellers.

The biggest problem over the years has been that the councils have been starved of funds which they could have used to replace antiquated systems. Nobody is saying that we should keep the system as it is. I have been in this Chamber for 15 years and have been asking every single Minister in charge of the environment when the Vartry tunnel is going to be fixed. It was only decided last year that it should be replaced. The Vartry tunnel supplies a third of the water to this city and has been in a state of collapse for the past 25 years. Luckily, the decision has been taken to fix it. It is not fixed yet, and if it collapses, one can imagine the chaos we would have. It would be comparable to what happened in Louth except that it would last for two years rather than two weeks.

There is immediate need for huge investment. Even given the restrictions on funding that the EU has placed upon us, I believe that Ireland should go to the EU and make the special case to fix the lead water pipes in this city and to fix the major asbestos pipes outside the city. They need to be replaced immediately on public health grounds.

In terms of wastage, this whole episode of Irish Water reminds me of the electronic voting machines episode. It has been an absolute waste, and we have nothing to show for it other than the fact the public has been awoken and has seen the political parties of the right for what they are. It is clear that their intention all along was privatisation. Some will insist that it was not and that there was an intention to retain public ownership and a willingness to support constitutional change. Look back to when Fianna Fáil was in Government with the Progressive Democrats. The agenda that was implemented then and by every political party that has been in Government since then has been continually to pursue the privatisation of public services and to undermine public services. This debacle is part of that. I for one do not believe it is at an end. I believe that this is going to come back to haunt us, because there will be other attempts to try to bypass this legislation or other legislation, or at least to reintroduce water charges in a different format.

10:25 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Iarraim ar an Teachta Ó Snodaigh moladh a dhéanamh an díospóireacht a chur ar athló go dtí lá éigin eile.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Go dtí cén lá?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Níl fhios agam.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Muna bhfuil an Whip isteach ní féidir leis teacht isteach roimh 12 meán lae amárach.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Níl an Rialtas chun rud ar bith a athrú.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at at 10.15 p.m. until 12 noon on Thursday, 5 October 2017.