Dáil debates

Tuesday, 3 October 2017

Topical Issue Debate

Referendum in Catalonia

6:15 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies Crowe, Ó Broin and Boyd Barrett have one minute each.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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I raised the situation in Catalonia last week with the Minister of State with responsibility for EU affairs. I told her that in the build-up to this referendum, the unprecedented attacks on fundamental rights and civil and political rights are putting democracy in Catalonia at risk. Many of our worst fears were confirmed on Sunday. I agree with the Taoiseach's comments this afternoon that the scenes of brutality in Catalonia were horrific. Over 890 people were injured in this crackdown on democracy. Will the Minister of State join me in sending solidarity from this Chamber to those people and to wish them a speedy recovery? We know that the Spanish police used plastic bullets which the Catalan Government banned in 2014 after a campaign by victims who were maimed and blinded by these deadly weapons. We know the effect that they can have. One of the Minister of State's colleagues, the Minister of State, Deputy John Halligan, requested that the Spanish ambassador to Ireland be called into Government Buildings to convey our horror at voters in any democracy being dragged from polling stations. Will the Minister of State do this and does he believe that the police response was proportionate, as suggested by the Spanish deputy Prime Minister?

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I was in Barcelona and Catalonia over the weekend as a guest of the Catalan Government and was accredited by its electoral commission, participating in a delegation of approximately 40 members of European countries' parliaments observing the election. I witnessed first-hand many disturbing scenes that we saw on the news over the weekend and spoke to many people who had been hit with plastic bullets and been beaten with batons, including an 83 year old man who, after being treated for his wounds, went back to the polling station and waited another six or seven hours to vote. I welcome, as Deputy Crowe has, the Taoiseach's remarks condemning the violence but it concerns me that the Government says that the substance of the difficulties in Catalonia are an internal matter for the Spanish state and that therefore the Government cannot interfere. That was not the Government's position on human rights and civil liberties in Poland or Hungary recently, or indeed in Myanmar. The Government has a long history of speaking up and advocating about foreign governments' actions when it feels that they are inappropriate. Will the Minister of State support the call of the Catalan Government to invite or to secure the European Union to intervene and to provide mediation between the Catalan Government and people and the Spanish Government to resolve the difficulties in that part of Europe?

6:25 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Condemning the violence, as the Taoiseach has done, is a start, but it is not acceptable for European Union leaders, including the Taoiseach, to refuse to condemn the violent suppression of the exercise of self-determination. They are condemning violence but not the decision to suppress a democratic vote. In fact, to some extent, there is a justification for talking about it being an internal Spanish matter to be dealt with under Spanish law. The UN charter and international law are crystal clear on the right to self-determination, but that right is being violently suppressed by the Spanish state, a European state. European leaders are not condemning it or saying the people of Catalonia have a right to vote and make their own decision on their political, social and cultural future.

Photo of Ciarán CannonCiarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I have listened carefully to the contributions made by the Deputies on the situation in Catalonia. I appreciate fully that their contributions reflect genuine concern and also, in the case of Deputy Eoin Ó Broin, informed by his presence in Catalonia over the weekend with other Irish elected representatives. The region is also a location I visit a couple of times each year. What has been said in the debate will be shared with Catalan and other Spanish contacts. In this way, a range of Irish opinions will be shared. This is something I welcome. As the Minister of State, Deputy Helen McEntee, said when she spoke on the topic recently, what happens in Spain is of great interest to their Irish friends in this House and the communities we represent across the country.

Upholding the constitution and the rule of law in all its aspects is a key underpinning all modern democracies. Ireland respects the constitutional and territorial unity of Spain. The Government's position remains that the constitutional and political arrangements in Spain, as in any country of the European Union, are matters to be determined by its own citizens through its own institutions in keeping with the rule of law. Political developments in democracies take place within a legal framework. This is what protects the rights of all citizens. Respecting the rule of law and the limits it imposes is not a choice but an obligation. Differences of opinion should be contested robustly by public representatives and others and all parties should do so with full respect for the law and the rights of citizens. That is the foundation that underpins and protects modern, democratic societies.

I shared the dismay felt by many Irish people at the disturbing clashes and injuries sustained on Sunday in Catalonia. We know from our own experiences on this Island, as well as from experiences elsewhere, of the particular responsibility borne by the authorities to balance law and order while respecting rights. Let me be clear: violence has no place in politics. This has always been the position of the Government. I echo the call from the European Commission to all relevant players to move very swiftly from confrontation to dialogue. It is important that steps be taken to reduce tensions and reclaim the space where differing political views can be contested through national and regional democratic institutions with full respect always for the law and the rights of citizens. The events of Sunday last are the subject of extensive debate in Catalonia and across Spain. Everyone has a responsibility to reduce tensions. What we are saying in this Chamber mirrors many of the reflections national and regional representatives there, as well as broader society, are putting forward. We trust our Spanish friends to decide for themselves how to shape their future. As I stated, what happens in Spain matters very much to us. We encourage all of the parties involved to find ways to de-escalate tensions and build trust.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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A referendum on independence is also a political issue, not solely a judicial one. The Spanish Government should respond to it through dialogue and negotiations, not by attacking voters and polling stations, a point on which there is agreement. The Catalan Government has requested mediation by the European Union on the issue. Does the Minister of State agree with that proposal and, more importantly, will the Government press the European Union to mediate on this important issue?

I have heard the statement repeatedly that this is an internal matter for Spain. What happened in Catalonia on Sunday is a matter of concern for everyone. I agree that Ireland is a friend of Spain and a friend tells someone when he or she is wrong. Make no mistake about it - what happened on Sunday was wrong. Red lines were crossed and the Minister of State needs to let the Spanish Government know this. What happened was unacceptable and should not be allowed to happen again. The Catalan people need to be allowed to find a democratic pathway to decide their own future.

Photo of Eoin Ó BroinEoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State's response was disappointing. He used the phrase "all relevant players ... move ... from confrontation." There has been no confrontation by the Catalan Government or people. If one watches all of the media coverage, what one will see is people trying to assert their rights peacefully and in a dignified way. Confrontation is certainly not how I would describe it as. They were attacks by one group on another.

There is a misunderstanding of how Catalan society has reached this point. For over a decade there have been attempts by successive Catalan Governments led by different political parties to find a different kind of constitutional arrangement within the Spanish state, either through greater devolution or now independence. The difficulty is that the Spanish Government is simply not open to dialogue. When one hears Mariano Rajoy's responses to the problems on the ground, the Spanish Government made its position very clear yesterday. What is needed is not a call for dialogue internally but international mediation and influence to be brought to bear, party to party, such as by the Minister of State's party, on the Popular Party in Spain to address the issue and crucially for the European Union to step in and mediate between the Catalan people and their representatives and the government in Spain. That is the role we want the Government in this jurisdiction to play.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am also concerned by the response. The Minister of State said, "We trust our Spanish friends to decide for themselves how to shape their future." That is the problem. I do not trust Mariano Rajoy or the Spanish state that has a brutal history of suppressing the desire for self-determination of the people of Catalonia. We do not and should not trust them. What we saw on Saturday was a shocking, violent suppression of people who were acting peacefully and trying to do so in a democratic way. The Catalan Parliament made a democratic decision to hold a referendum and the people went out to try to cast their ballot papers and the Spanish state suppressed them violently. The European is always going on about its commitment to human rights. This is an elementary human right under international law for people to exercise the freedom to self-determination and the Spanish state is denying it. What is the Government going to state about this? What is the European Union going to state about it? If it states nothing, its claim to be concerned about democracy or human rights will be in tatters. Frankly, it has covered itself in shame in the last few days in failing to speak out more robustly about what the Spanish state is doing.

Photo of Ciarán CannonCiarán Cannon (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I again express my appreciation for the contributions of Members and their concerns about the situation in Catalonia. I reassure them that what is happening in Spain is also of great interest to the Government. Ireland enjoys an excellent relationship with Spain and has a great rapport with its people, including the thousands of Spanish schoolchildren who visit Ireland every year and in meeting Spanish tourists and business people and our contacts at political and governmental level. We will continue to work constructively with the Spanish Government to build bilateral and trade relations and pursue our common goals at EU and international level. In order to better understand our EU partner, we are monitoring developments in the country closely and will pay particular attention to any potential impact on Irish citizens. My Department is following developments closely and responding to the concerns of Irish citizens. Earlier this afternoon the Taoiseach spoke about the developments in Catalonia on Sunday. The Deputies are very much aware of what he said. We all were horrified by the violent incidents that we saw which involved state actors and unarmed and non-threatening civilians.

We feel, not least from our own experiences, that such actions are counterproductive and that political progress needs to be made through dialogue. The Governments supports a resolution to the current situation which is based upon democracy and the rule of law. I want to reiterate the Government's position that this must be determined by Spain and its own people, based on the rule of law and through that country's own institutions. It is through such democratic processes that all voices can be heard and a way forward can be found. None of us here today wants to see further violence or injuries such as those seen last Sunday. I welcome the fact that demonstrations that have taken place since then have been allowed to take place in a peaceful manner.