Dáil debates

Tuesday, 26 September 2017

6:05 pm

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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43. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his views on the public services card; the circumstances in which the card will be required; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40462/17]

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I ask the Minister to a make a statement on the public services card. While he addressed the issue earlier, I ask him to make a statement in response to the serious concerns raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General in his report. The Minister referred to the report but did not refer to the issues highlighted in it regarding the serious concerns expressed by the Data Protection Commissioner. What has the Minister learned from the report and the concerns of the Data Protection Commissioner? The public services card project commenced in 2004, yet we do not have legislation 13 years afterwards.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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We do have legislation for this project. The Social Welfare Act to which I referred has been revisited on many occasions and provides the legislative foundation for this Bill. What I referred to earlier was separate legislation which will address the use and sharing of data in future as the opportunities and need to share them increase. The Bill has a firm legislative footing in section 263 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, which has been revisited by the Oireachtas on many occasions. As I stated, our responses to the queries raised by the Data Protection Commissioner, in particular with the Department of Social Protection, will be published shortly.

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am most unhappy with the Minister's answer. If he were to read the transcript of the relevant meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts and the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, he would see that no business case was provided for the public services card and the costs of the project or its positives were never evaluated. The estimated cost of the public services card now stands at €60 million. I am sure it is a matter of concern to the Minister, given his responsibility for public expenditure, that €60 million will be spent on a project for which no business case was ever provided, which was introduced on an ad hocbasis and the implications of which were never discussed.

On the issue of legislation, while we have the Social Welfare Act to which the Minister referred, we are waiting for the promised Bill on the storage, collection and, more important, sharing of data. Various answers refer to memorandums of understanding that do not exist.

I ask the Minister to grasp the seriousness of what has taken place, with an identity card being rolled out without any discussion, honesty or acknowledgement of its implications for privacy and the sharing of data, particularly in view of what emerged in the Committee of Public Accounts.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has made an appalling series of allegations and accused Ministers and the Oireachtas of engaging with this issue in a dishonest way. My understanding of the Deputy's political philosophy is that she favours the State having a role in trying to provide better services for people. I would, therefore, have expected her to favour the State having a role in trying to provide such services in a more efficient manner. The Deputy inferred - she more than inferred - that there was no legislative underpinning for the public services card and when I explained clearly that there is such an underpinning, she made the entirely unfounded claim that this was a national identity card.

As I and other Ministers have explained on many occasions, and I am happy to do again, it is not a national identity card. People are not required to carry it and it is an offence if such identification is sought from persons. I thought a Deputy who is in favour of the State playing a bigger role in people's lives and trying to make better use of public services would see the merit of this approach, as opposed to making the entirely unfounded allegations she made.

6:15 pm

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am not sure why the Minister has personalised this. According to the Comptroller and Auditor General when writing on the public accounts, the "Department commenced work [in 2016] on issues around data sharing, governance and the security of data which will be key elements of legislation currently being developed". I have asked the Minister to address the ad hocnature of this project, which will cost €60 million. He has not addressed one issue. He has not addressed the question of why it has taken so long to come up with the legislation to which I have referred, and he has sidetracked onto my political ideology and other matters that are immaterial.

Will the Minister respond by addressing the issue of €60 million being spent on a project in an ad hocmanner without a business case having been made? What has he learned from that? When will the legislation be before the House? What has the Minister learned from his engagement with the Data Protection Commissioner? Why do we need this for passports, driving licences and every other service if it is not a national identity card?

I do not like the word "allegations". I do not make allegations - I deal in facts. I read reports and am quoting one now.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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The record of the House will show that the Deputy made accusations about the honesty and faithfulness with which this card was rolled out,-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Yes.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----and I called those out for that they were.

The Deputy is not the only person in the House who is motivated by good intentions and is trying to find ways of ensuring that public services are made available-----

Photo of Catherine ConnollyCatherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Just deal with the issues raised.

Photo of Paschal DonohoePaschal Donohoe (Dublin Central, Fine Gael)
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-----to people in more efficient ways. Deputy Connolly made a set of accusations that I rebutted. She has made claims about this being a national identity card, which I reject and are unfounded in any comment that I or the Government has made. We are making this card available so that public services can be better provided to people with a view to ensuring that they do not have to supply the same set of information and proof of identity on multiple occasions to different State bodies just to get services from the same State.

We will deal in public with matters raised by the Data Protection Commissioner. I will revert to the Deputy with the detail of the responses made by any Department regarding the concerns of the Comptroller and Auditor General. I will do that in acknowledgment of the fact that this card has been rolled out legally. The Oireachtas has had the opportunity to debate the relevant law many times.