Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on justice reform last met. [31193/17]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet committee on justice reform last met. [32102/17]

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 and 5 together.

The Cabinet committee on justice reform was established to provide political oversight of the delivery of commitments in the programme for a partnership Government to reform the policing, justice and legal systems and related issues.

The Cabinet committee last met on 7 March 2017.

The main focus of the Cabinet committee was the establishment of the independent Policing Authority to oversee the policing functions of An Garda Síochána and a number of related reforms, including strengthened powers for the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, and a programme of recruitment and investment in An Garda Síochána.

The Cabinet committee also oversaw the enactment of legislation to establish the Legal Services Regulatory Authority.

As I have previously indicated to the House, the Government has streamlined the Cabinet committee structures. Justice-related issues will now fall within the remit of Cabinet sub-committee B, which covers issues relating to justice, social policy and public services.

The Government is determined to ensure substantive reform of the policing and justice systems, both as a result of the work of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland and in the short term through implementation of the existing Garda modernisation and renewal plan.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am a little concerned that one Cabinet committee would try to cover a remit that includes all justice-related issues, public service issues, presumably including public service reform which should not fall off the agenda, and social policy. The Taoiseach might reflect on that again. Policing reform is one of the most important issues facing our society. The implementation of the numerous recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate consumed a great deal of the time of the previous justice reform committee, of which I was a member. How does the Taoiseach envisage the implementation of the Garda Inspectorate reform proposals being accomplished and overseen? Second, I understand we will get a report in September from the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland on the review of policing in Ireland, which is currently under way. What implementation mechanism does the Taoiseach envisage will be put in place at Government level to ensure that its recommendations become reality, rather than having yet another report on policing that simply is not implemented?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With regard to the change or reform of Cabinet committees, there are many questions about the strategy the Taoiseach has deployed. The Taoiseach said he wanted the committees to be more focused, but he has put many issues involving wide-ranging and diverse disciplines under one committee. As a result of his changes, the national anti-poverty strategy, public sector reform, the drugs strategy and the promotion of the Irish language will be dealt with by the same Cabinet committee. That is absurd and it will be difficult to achieve a focus in that committee. In my view, abolishing a sub-committee in an area such as justice reform is wrong. Every Cabinet committee had an associated senior officials group which met separately, and that is often where most of the detailed work got done. Now, effectively, there will be no dedicated interdepartmental group on nearly all issues. Perhaps the Taoiseach will explain how he believes the previous work that was undertaken by interdepartmental groups on specific topics will be continued.

Regarding the reform of policing and the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland, can the Taoiseach indicate when he expects an interim report or when the Minister for Justice and Equality will be able to make a presentation? The Taoiseach must accept that morale within An Garda Síochána is low. It was not helped last week by his comments. When court cases are concluded and other court cases relating to the same incident are about to take place we must avoid comment on the issues.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It raises questions for a garda today should another event or incident happen on the street. What will his or her response be-----

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in terms of rushing to the defence of a person going about their business or a civilian whose freedom of movement is being curtailed? There is always a balance in these matters. I am not talking about imprisonment here but one's right to walk on the street and to go from A to B. I believe gardaí should vindicate that right-----

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I remind Deputies to abide by the time limits.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but it often is not vindicated in the modern era. We must be very careful about cherry-picking various aspects of a case when we have not been in the court room for the length of the trial.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Some of us are very disciplined, Chairman.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Martin, you are a minute and a half over time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It undermines morale even further, whether the Taoiseach accepts it or not.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The clock applies to all of us. The Taoiseach was right to acknowledge that there was something to be investigated given the outcome of the trial of the Jobstown defendants. I welcome that he did so. This is all in the public domain. The evidence was aired.

There was a flat contradiction between objective video evidence and statements made by three very senior gardaí. There were also other highly significant contradictions in evidence. When three senior gardaí make the same false statement, word for word, that is a crime if it turns out to be collusion. I hope Deputy Micheál Martin acknowledges, as the Taoiseach appears to have done, the seriousness of this matter, coming as it does on the back of the scandals about whistleblowers, 1 million false breath tests and 15,000 false convictions. I could go through a list but this is another instance of the same thing that needs to be investigated. In that context, I put it to the Taoiseach that the investigation cannot be conducted by the Garda. These are serious matters and the investigation must be done by people who will consider the evidence objectively.

Has the Taoiseach discussed the correspondence sent by the solicitor representing Cynthia Owen to the Minister for Justice and Equality? He will be aware of the terrible case involving an 11 year old girl who was raped and gave birth to a child that was subsequently murdered and who has made allegations against very senior gardaí. Ms Owen's solicitor has stated that the barrister from the independent review mechanism, the panel of barristers examining certain cases, who carried out the review of her case had previously represented one of the accused in the case. This gives rise to a serious conflict of interest. I ask the Taoiseach to examine this serious issue. Cynthia Owen is being denied the justice and investigation she is seeking in a context of a major conflict of interest on the part of the person who made the decision in her case.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach raised some legitimate concerns around the Jobstown trial in a fair and forthright manner. Will he set out for us how this matter should be resolved? What manner of investigation or review is required to establish whether, deliberately or otherwise, there was a misrepresentation of the facts to a court of law by members of An Garda Síochána? This is an incredibly important issue and, unlike Deputy Micheál Martin, I do not believe the Taoiseach was being unfair to anyone in making certain observations. He was simply making a statement of the blindingly apparent and it is also blindingly apparent that there must be a high-level response.

On another justice related matter, the Taoiseach also answered a question about a very strange and serious allegation that the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, made a complaint to which the Garda responded by stopping an individual, since named in the press, at Dublin Airport and, it seems, asked or obliged this person to sign a statement on pain of not being allowed to catch a flight and exit the jurisdiction. The Taoiseach stated he had raised this matter with the Minister. It is very important that he makes a more substantive statement on this turn of events to set out the facts and the Minister's involvement in them.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Regarding Cabinet sub-committees, I am trying a new way of working. The previous system of Cabinet sub-committees sometimes worked well and sometimes did not work well. There were ten or 12 such sub-committees if I remember correctly, and when one included Ministers, Ministers of State and senior officials, between 30 and 40 people attended meetings on occasion. As I was not sure that system provided the necessary focus to get things done, I slimmed down the system to five sub-committees.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach expanded them.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The format in which people meet will depend on the issue. It will not be the case that everyone will be required to attend every sub-committee meeting. Some people will be required and others will be invited depending on the issues that are being dealt with. I am doing many more things bilaterally. I had a very long bilateral meeting with the Minister for Justice and Equality and his Secretary General last week and I will carry through a whole programme of bilateral meetings with Ministers through to the end of July.

More is also being done at the Cabinet table rather than at sub-committees. For example, we had two Cabinet meetings last week and we will also have two Cabinet meetings next week. More things are being done collectively by the whole Cabinet rather than having them delegated to sub-committees. This is just a different way of doing things and if it does not work out, we will review the position after six months and possibly change it. The important thing is not the structure but the outcomes. Let us see the outcomes.

Regarding Jobstown, I restate my view that I do not condone in any way the actions of the protestors in Jobstown. While no one was convicted, the scenes were ugly and violent. I was particularly struck by the moment when a vote was taken as to whether the two women should be detained all night. That was more like a scene fromLord of the Fliesthan a scene from a peaceful protest.

To respond to Deputy Micheál Martin, there is a world of difference between commenting on a trial that is over and one that is under way. As Head of Government, I believe there is legitimate concern about any failed prosecution, whether in the Jobstown case or the prosecution of Seán FitzPatrick, given the enormous amounts of taxpayers' money that go into prosecuting people and the time taken up by citizens serving on a jury and those who have to be part of the trial process in many different ways. When a prosecution fails there should, at the very least, be a review of the reasons it went wrong, and I am glad such a review is under way in both the cases to which I referred. If I had failed to call for such a review, Deputy Martin may have been the person calling for such review and asking why I was not supporting one.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not what the Taoiseach said. He should not be disingenuous.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I also want to state clearly that I am a big supporter of the Garda. Ireland is a very peaceful country with a very low level of crime, and part of the reason for that is that we have an unarmed, trusted and respected police force. These are not only words. Look at the actions the Government has taken. We restarted recruitment, which Fianna Fáil stopped when in government.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The previous Government restarted recruitment.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There are now 13,500 members of the Garda and the number will increase to 15,000 as part of the current programme. We will also increase the size of the Garda Reserve and double the number of civilians in the force. That is what we are doing to improve the Garda. We also have a €300 million plan for investment in information technology, buildings and vehicles in the Garda. The Government has also accepted the Labour Court recommendation on pay which will bring average pay levels in the Garda up to close to €70,000.

We have a bigger, better equipped and better remunerated force than we had two years ago, and in another two years it will be bigger again and even better equipped. Remuneration will also continue to improve. It is precisely because I support the Garda that I expect the highest standards. This means statistics, whether on breath tests or domestic violence, should be accurate, accounts should be managed properly-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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We have not yet been given an explanation for any of those matters.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----public moneys should be used only for the purposes for which they are intended and prosecutions should be taken to the highest standard. It is because I support the Garda so much that I want the highest standards from the force and that is something I will communicate strongly to the Garda Commissioner and Minister for Justice and Equality in my interactions with them.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What if a crime has been committed?

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The time for this question has expired.