Dáil debates

Wednesday, 5 July 2017

Topical Issue Debate

Housing Adaptation Grant Applications

3:30 pm

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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This Topical Issue is about housing and the problems people are experiencing getting grants. It is the wish of the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government and the Government that the social housing lists be reduced. This could be done if a number of things were rectified. To be eligible for grant aid from Kerry County Council a person must be 66 years of age. A number of years ago - I cannot recall when - a person in his or her late 50s, whose house was in bad repair, was eligible for grant aid of approximately €8,000, which is a lot of money to those who qualified for it. I have been approached by a number of people aged 50 years upwards who have been refused grant aid because, as I said, to be eligible for a grant a person must be 66 years of age. Many of these people end up on the social housing list because their houses are in bad repair. It may be that the roofs of the houses are leaking or that the windows and doors are in a bad state. Also, many of these people are unemployed. They might be in good shape but they cannot get work. If they were disabled they would be eligible for the disabled person's grant. As these people do not qualify for grant aid for house improvements they end up on the housing list.

In regard to the improvement works in lieu, IWL, scheme, while funding provided under this scheme is deemed to be a grant, it is actually a loan. Those who qualify for it are required to pay back a set amount each week to Kerry County Council, often by way of deductions from their social welfare benefits. Many people are being denied this facility because of the stipulation that to qualify a house must have cavity block walls. People whose houses have cavity block walls do not need a grant. People whose houses have stone built walls do not qualify for the improvement works in lieu scheme but they only find this out when their applications have been refused because of this stipulation. I am asking that this provision be reviewed because it is totally unfair. It is the people whose houses have stone walls that are in greatest need of this grant, which in my view should be termed a loan. Applications for these loans are required to be vetted by housing engineers. Applicants should be told in the first instance that if their house has stone walls they should not apply but they are not told this until after an application has been vetted by two engineers. The purpose of the first engineer visit is to determine whether the works qualify under the scheme and this is followed up by a visit from a second engineer, such that much time is invested in and wasted on assessment of applications. I am asking that the Minister review these two schemes. If he does so, it will help stop the flow of people onto the housing lists, as is currently happening in Kerry. There are many such cases arising in the Kerry local authority area.

Photo of Damien EnglishDamien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Danny Healy-Rae for raising this matter. As Minister of State with responsibility for housing and urban renewal in the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, I am aware of the challenges we face in delivering housing supports to a range of vulnerable households and groups throughout the country. We held a competition last week in regard to new technologies and developments to help address this situation.

I am also very aware of the social benefit accruing from the housing adaptation grants in facilitating older people, in particular, and people with disabilities in continued independent occupancy in their own homes for as long as possible. Our priority and, I am sure, that of Deputy Danny Healy-Rae is to keep people in their homes and communities, where they want to be, for as long as possible and thus keep them off the housing lists. That is our aim and we do everything we can in the Department and across other Departments to help encourage this.

The housing aid for older people scheme provides grants of up to €8,000 to assist older people living in poor housing conditions to have necessary repairs or improvements carried out. Eligible works include structural repairs or improvements, rewiring, replacement of windows and doors, sanitary facilities, heating and so on. The detailed administration of the scheme and the prioritisation of individual cases is a matter for local authorities who are familiar with the applicants and their particular housing conditions. This scheme and related schemes were reviewed by my Department in 2013 to identify how they could become more focused and targeted to those who are most in need. Based on the recommendations of this review, the eligibility age limit for the housing aid for older people was increased from 60 to 66 years to bring it in line with the majority of supports for older people. The Deputy mentioned that the age limit in this regard was previously set at 50 years but that he cannot recall when that was the case. I am not sure either when it was set at 50 years but I know that it was increased from 60 to 66 years in 2013. A lower age limit can apply in certain circumstances at the discretion of the local authority. This may happen in particular hardship cases or where medical guidance is provided in the case. However, I do not favour, and I do not intend, to reduce to 50 the age that ordinarily applies to this scheme because I believe that would be very much stretching the definition of a scheme that supports older people. There is no point in my misleading the Deputy: there is no intention to reduce the age limit in respect of eligibility for this scheme but, as I said, the local authorities have the discretion mentioned.

These grants need to be directed to those most in need and I believe our older people - they being people 66 or over, with some discretion for exceptional hardship cases - are those who warrant this support. We do not have an endless budget and we need to try to provide assistance to those most in need. That is not to say there are not others who also have need for support but every scheme must have its limits and criteria and I believe that prioritising this scheme for our older people is the right approach.

The Deputy also raised an issue in regard to the improvement works in lieu scheme. My Department provides funding to local authorities under this scheme so they can repair, improve or extend privately-owned houses that are occupied by people who are qualified for social housing, as an alternative to providing them with local authority housing. This makes sense. The Deputy is correct that it also takes them off the social housing lists and it maximises the usage of existing houses and sites, where possible. There is no rule under this scheme about cavity walls or stone built walls. What is in the criteria for the scheme is that improvement works to be funded by the local authority should be structurally sound, free from damp and weather-tight. This makes sense; nobody would expect a council to invest public money in a property if it does not consider it satisfies these requirements. If a council did this, it would rightly be criticised for not assessing the building and my Department would be criticised for funding it. There is no rule in regard to cavity or stone walls. If this has been cited as a reason for refusal of an application and the Deputy has examples of this I would be happy to review them.

The Deputy will appreciate that my Department is not involved in every assessment and every decision that a council makes on individual applications nor should it be. It is right and proper that such decisions rest with the local council but if the Deputy is unhappy about a particular case, he should raise it with the council directly. If the Deputy has a number of examples of where this has happened I will be happy to review them. There is no rule of the type mentioned by the Deputy.

The Department will continue to fund these two important schemes, the housing aid for older people scheme and the improvement works in lieu scheme, with the funding being targeted to those most particularly in need.

This is an issue close to the Acting Chairman's heart. We have increased the funding in that space this year, and rightly so. We are doing a great deal of good work here and we want to continue doing that.

3:40 pm

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for his response. He had some interesting answers, particularly regarding the issue of houses with stone walls. What I stated about it is a stipulation by our local authority and it said it was a Department rule. I will have to investigate that further.

The housing aid for older people scheme is a great scheme and it had ensured that many elderly people have been able to stay in their own homes. We really appreciate that. A person can be old at the age of 50 or 55. A women who was 102 years old contacted me by phone the other day and from my conversation with her she did not seem to be old. It is all about the way people interpret matters and their attitude. Some people on reaching the age of 50 can be in bad shape and not able to work as they were able to do when they were younger or they may not be able to get a job. We would like if such people could also stay in their homes. If matters improved a little, perhaps the age requirement for grant aid could be reduced. That is what I am asking for and that it be done as soon as possible, as those people would also like to stay in their homes.

We need to maximise the houses we have. Many houses are currently vacant but many of them are not fit to live in. I hope those houses are not being counted in the number of vacant houses because many of them are certainly not fit to live in. Even though some of these people are continuing to living in these houses, they are not fit for human habitation, having regard to the modern housing standards enjoyed by most people. If that rule for grant aid could be reduced to under the age of 60, it would help a good few people and keep them off the housing list.

A person can find a leak in a roof and on investigation more work may need to be done, which may be costly, and they may be afraid to do it, but repairing it can become more costly if the roof is not repaired when the leak is discovered. There is a good reason for reducing the age requirement. The Minister of State has made me wise about the stone wall issue. The answer I got from the local authority was that a house had to have cavity walls before it could be considered.

Photo of Declan BreathnachDeclan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has taken fierce liberty.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank the Acting Chairman.

Photo of Damien EnglishDamien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I am very happy to confirm that our Departments has no rule relating to stone walls. The Deputy can go back to the council and tell the people there to check the rules. If there is any doubt about that, I can send the Deputy a letter on it.

I am very conscious of the social benefits flowing from the housing adaption grants for older people and people with disabilities in terms of facilitating their continued independent living for as long as possible, which is what the Deputy has highlighted. I assure him that I, the Department and the Government are committed to that. We spend the money in the best way we possibly can. That is why the funding available for the schemes was increased by 6% this year to an overall funding availability of €59.8 million nationally. Last year more than 8,000 households benefitted under this scheme and this year we predict that possibly up to 9,000 households could benefit from the scheme with the increased funding, and rightly so. It is a good scheme, we get good value for money and it aids people to stay in their homes.

We recognise that there is a range of people who seek supports of different kinds but every scheme must have some criteria on which to be able to measure it and spend the money accordingly. Certainly, people who are older and people with disabilities are the ones on whom we have to concentrate the resources and make sure they get what they need.

As I said in my opening remarks, we do not favour reducing the limit, although I understand why the Deputy would ask for that. It is not in our plans to do that and I do not want to leave any doubt in the Deputy's mind about that. Regarding the improvement works in lieu scheme, our Department is not involved in every decision and there is no rule regarding the need for a house to have block versus a cavity walls. I want to be very clear on that. It is a decision taken on cases by the local authority concerned. That is where the Deputy should start in that respect and if there is a policy issue that we need to change, the Deputy should raise it with me. I would be happy to meet him and discuss it with him.

It is very uncommon to come across people living in a house that is not fit for purpose. There are many different schemes and supports available. Commonsense is applied and there is flexibility in the criteria. While the bulk of the money is aimed at a certain age group there is enough commonsense among those in most local authorities for them to be able to cater for a person's individual needs where that is required. That is what councillors and Deputies do. They find these cases and raise them with local authorities and generally we find solutions.

I would mention other schemes that are available. The home renovation incentive scheme is available for private and social housing. Under it, one can spend money on one's house and claim back the valued added tax, VAT, which makes it more attractive. There is the housing aid for older people scheme which I mentioned. There is a mobility aids grant scheme available through local authorities for people of all ages.. There is a better energy home scheme. There is also a grant scheme to replace lead pipes and fittings but, more importantly, the most recent scheme we brought in is one to tackle the issue of vacant properties. We recognise that many vacant properties are not fit for use. We brought in the repair and leasing scheme, where up to €40,000 per house is available to bring a house up to a high standard so that it can be used again. That is available to anybody who owns a property once they make it available for social housing. There are other schemes available for private housing. There should not be a situation where people are left in accommodation that is not fit for purpose.

Photo of Declan BreathnachDeclan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is easy knowing that this issue is dear to my heart. The Minister of State has taken liberties also but I allowed him to do so.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The Acting Chairman was interested in the topic.