Dáil debates

Tuesday, 4 July 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

Referendum Campaigns

4:25 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach his plans in respect of holding constitutional referenda over the next 12 months. [29836/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach the referenda he is considering as a priority in the coming period. [29967/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach his plans for constitutional reform. [29974/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach his plans in respect of constitutional reform in the coming months. [31172/17]

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach his plans for constitutional referenda in the coming year. [31189/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to hold constitutional referenda in the future. [31387/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 7, inclusive, together.

Under the Programme for a Partnership Government, the Government is committed to holding constitutional referenda on the following matters: Article 41.2.1, regarding a woman's life within the home; Article 40.6.1, on the offence of blasphemy; giving the office of Ceann Comhairle constitutional standing; and Ireland's participation in the Unified Patent Court.

Three of these proposals arise from the Convention on the Constitution that sat from January 2013 to February 2014. The Government has responded to all the convention's reports. One of the convention's recommendations, of particular importance, is in relation to amending the Constitution to give citizens resident outside the State the right to vote in presidential elections. In March of this year, Government approved, in principle, to the holding of this referendum and the Minister for Housing, Community and Local Government is now working on this matter.

In addition, the Programme for a Partnership Government committed the Government to establish a Citizens' Assembly with a mandate to look at a limited number of key issues, including the eighth amendment to the Constitution. In July 2016, the Houses of the Oireachtas approved establishment of the assembly.

The assembly is chaired by former Supreme Court Judge, Ms Justice Mary Laffoy. It operates independently of Government and will report directly to the Houses of the Oireachtas. The assembly has concluded its deliberations on the first topic, the eighth amendment, and published its report on the matter only last Thursday and laid it before the Houses. The Houses will now refer it for consideration to the recently established Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment under the chairmanship of Senator Catherine Noone, which will in turn bring its conclusions to the Houses for debate. As I have already indicated, it is my intention to hold a referendum on this matter in 2018.

The Programme for a Partnership Government also says that on foot of the recommendation of the banking inquiry, the Government will seek a review of the powers of Oireachtas committees in conducting inquiries and, based on this review, will consider whether there should be a constitutional referendum to strengthen the power of Oireachtas committees.

Aside from a referendum on the eighth amendment taking place next year, no decision has been made yet as regards timing for other planned referenda. Before any referendum would be scheduled, I will of course bring a proposal to Government and hold discussions with Opposition leaders.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has said that the Government will hold a referendum on the eight amendment next year. Can the Taoiseach please be more specific than that? We need a reassurance that the referendum will be put to the people early next year. It would be most welcome if the Taoiseach clarified that matter in the House this afternoon. The convention did, as the Taoiseach said, deliberate on matters and produced a report that I believe is broadly reflective and chimes with public opinion, broadly cast, right across the country. There is no doubt that there is now a level of public impatience with the Taoiseach's ongoing failure to deal with this issue. I know the Taoiseach will cite the committee and how it is up and running, but there now needs to be a sense of urgency around all this.

There was a revelation several weeks ago that a young girl who had requested a termination when reporting suicidal ideation due to an unwanted pregnancy was instead falsely imprisoned under the Mental Health Act. It is an absolutely appalling and shocking thing. That appalling situation echoed the experience of Ms Amanda Mellett. Last summer, the United Nations ruled that the State had failed her and that she had suffered discrimination and cruel and inhuman or degrading treatment. She is by no means alone in that experience.

The Taoiseach has made the commitment to the referendum.

That is to be welcomed. We now need to know when it will be held and we need to be reassured that there will be no further foot dragging.

In respect of the extension of voting rights, we must bear in mind it is limited to presidential elections. This matter was also deliberated on by the constitutional convention. Its view was crystal clear and yet we are waiting and waiting. Notwithstanding the work of the Minister, when will this matter be put to the people?

4:35 pm

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment to hold a referendum in 2018. Given the timeline of the Oireachtas committee, which has a number of months in which to do its work, whatever further deliberations the Taoiseach may decide are required in terms of these Houses and the actual preparation of the referendum, it would be highly desirable if the Taoiseach could commit to holding the referendum shortly after March and perhaps before the middle of June 2018. It is appropriate for it to be held then because it should not become embroiled in the visit of the Pope to Ireland towards the end of the summer. We want a respectful debate. It is a very difficult personal issue for huge numbers of people. The people who campaign on the "ultra" sides of either side may have very clear and shrill views but many citizens will want the opportunity to come to their conclusions about what is the most appropriate option. I agree with what has been said, namely, that there has been a sea change in people's attitudes in this area. I want to make it clear that the Labour Party wishes to see the repeal of the existing constitutional amendment, which was passed over 30 years ago. Younger people in particular want their opportunity to vote on that as soon as is practically possible. My view is that it should be early in the second quarter of next year.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I also welcome the clear commitment to have a referendum on the eighth amendment during the course of 2018. I do not want to rehearse or repeat matters that have already been raised by my colleague with which I strongly agree. However, I wish to get some clarification from the Taoiseach. I do not think anybody on any side of the House believes that this Dáil will last a full five-year term or anything like it. I would like to get some sense of what other issues are prioritised in the list given by the Taoiseach. He has given us a list of matters.

In respect of the Taoiseach's view on holding more than one referendum on the same day, which he will recall was debated in the Government of which he and I were both members, it was his predecessor's view that one could have a referendum day to address a number of issues. However, I think it is clear that on matters of substance, one cannot have the kind of focus and debate if there are a number of issues to be addressed. Some issues get put to one side and focused on at the last minute and we do not get a rounded debate on them. I would be interested in hearing the Taoiseach's view on two matters. What is his view on multi-referenda days? If he is of the view that they must be taken on a stand-alone basis, in reality, we will only have one referendum by the end of next year and probably in the lifetime of this Dáil. Where does this leave two matters, one of which is the issue of emigrant voting rights? We have a Minister of State for the diaspora and a Minister of State for electoral reform and I understand that we now have a special envoy for the undocumented Irish, so plenty of jobs have been given out but are we going to proceed on that matter? The Taoiseach has not raised the issue of Seanad reform, which was a matter for a referendum. Where are we in terms of what we do next?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Today, the Taoiseach and the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, were touting their support for the CETA agreement, an agreement that could result in thousands of job losses, fundamentally undermine workers' rights, subvert environmental protections and, crucially, undermine the sovereignty of the legal system and the Constitution in this country and countries across Europe. Bizarrely, much of the coverage of the Taoiseach's meeting with Prime Minister Trudeau focused on things like the pattern of the Taoiseach's socks and his youthfulness when this deal has hugely significant and potentially very damaging consequences for our economy and the sovereignty of our legal system. A wide range of NGOs and legal experts are saying that, effectively, this deal is illegal for European states because it will undermine their legal systems. Does the Taoiseach not think that it is wrong for us to go along with the provisional application of this corporate, globalisation-style agreement without a democratic process - a referendum - and some democratic input into whether or not we sign up to this agreement rather than just provisionally applying it, as the lingo goes, over the heads of this Parliament and the people of this country?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I am glad that there is now a commitment to hold a referendum on the eighth amendment in 2018. The question is what kind of referendum it will be. I hope it will be one that respects the findings of the Citizens Assembly, which this Dáil established against the advice of many of us. It came up with a decision to trust women. I also hope that the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution will be respected and that the parallel process we are hearing about in the media will wait for the committee to give its verdict.

The Citizens Assembly was set up by the Dáil. It has come up with a position of trusting women. That position is beyond what most of the parties in this Dáil are in favour of - bar Solidarity-People Before Profit and probably a handful of other individuals in this Dáil. Given that the Dáil is more conservative than the wider public, I hope the public will not be prevented from at least having a say on those proposals. How could this be done? We need a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment. It is vital that we remove the eighth amendment from the Constitution and not police women's bodies or health in our Constitution. Would the Taoiseach be open to the idea of a second vote - a consultative vote - where people could have a say on the options put forward by the Citizens' Assembly? This would be a plebiscite. Generally, we do not hold plebiscites in this country but a plebiscite was considered with regard to water charges and public ownership of water. Otherwise, people may not get an opportunity to have a say on those progressive proposals. The pro-choice movement, the repeal movement, young people and women would campaign for a "Yes" vote to all of those options. That would give people a democratic say on what are historic proposals rather than the Dáil possibly coming up with a more restrictive proposal.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The fact that there have been more public consultations on the content of referenda is a positive development. The referendum to abolish the Seanad failed because it was seen as a party political objective as opposed to one that was necessarily good for the country. The people saw sense in terms of maintaining a second, Upper, House to have the proper articulation of views, views independent of the Government in many instances.

In respect of the eighth amendment, it seems that the key determinant is the Oireachtas committee that has just been established in terms of both the timing and the content. Let us be honest. The content will be central to whatever proposition is ultimately put to the people. There will be varying degrees of interest around the committee. That will be the challenging part in terms of the process and a workable proposition to be put to the people because it is an issue on which the people deserve to be consulted and have their say. The precise nature of the question will be the difficult part of this. It was our view all along that we wanted this to be considered by the Oireachtas in advance of the Citizens Assembly.

We would have preferred for the Oireachtas to start working on it much earlier. As it is, we now have the recommendations from the Citizens' Assembly. The Oireachtas committee will have to work on that and then the issue has to be put to the people.

The Taoiseach mentioned the European patent court as necessitating a potential referendum. That is economically important and I would appreciate if the Taoiseach could indicate to me what is the up-to-date position. Has the Government set priority on the other referendums that the Taoiseach identified and referred to, apart from for one on the eighth amendment?

On the Dáil debate on the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA, last week following a Private Members' motion that we tabled, along with other issues pertaining to enterprise, if one talks to small and medium-sized companies, they actually see benefits to be derived from CETA from new jobs-----

4:45 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Wait until it happens.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and exports. The overall point that I would make is that Ireland cannot go anywhere if we do not have access to markets. I would like to hear about the opposite to the CETAs of this world. Is Ireland to be an isolated, closed market that does not engage with other markets across the globe? We thrive when we have a free trade environment globally. That has been the fundamental change in Ireland's industrial and economic history from the late 1950s and the 1960s to the current day.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Time is limited. I call the Taoiseach to respond.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have submitted my case, Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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There is a number of matters to speak to there. Everyone in this House has been involved in a number of referendums and we all know what is required to have a referendum. First, there needs to be wording, even if that wording is as simple as "delete the following sentence", so that has to be agreed with regard to all of these referendums. Secondly, there needs to be legislation. While it probably is not needed, it is advisable so that people know what legislation is going to come into force if an amendment is made. We did that for divorce and for marriage equality. I imagine we would also have to publish legislation so that people know what the new law is before they vote on the amendment. An electoral commission also has to be established, and electoral commissions will want a certain amount of time. We have faced complaints from electoral commissions before, telling Government that it was rushing a referendum and that it did not give the electoral commission enough time. We have also had court cases on campaigns and the validity of referendums as a result of that.

When it comes to a referendum on abortion, on the eighth amendment, I have no interest in long-fingering it. This issue has been discussed for a very long time and I think people should have their say. If it is possible to have it done before the summer of next year, I would have no difficulty with that, but I do not want to make a commitment in the House here that that is possible and then suddenly have to come back into the House in March and April and say that it cannot be done for various reasons. The first step is the Oireachtas committee completing its deliberations. The Citizens' Assembly report was only formally published last week and I understand the committee is not going to have its proper hearings until September, so I expect it will be near to the end of the year before it is able to advise us on the potential wording of legislation.

I will explain the parallel process. It is not an attempt to circumvent the Citizens' Assembly or to circumvent what is happening at the Oireachtas committee. Rather, I have asked the Attorney General and the Department of Health to pay attention to what the Citizens' Assembly has recommended and to pay attention to the deliberations that are going to be happening in the Oireachtas committee, so that if and when the Oireachtas committee makes its report, perhaps at the end of November or December, it does not suddenly arrive on the desk of the Attorney General or Minister for Health and have them asking what it is all about. I want them to pay attention to what the Citizens' Assembly has recommended and to what the committee deliberates on so that we are ready to have a referendum in 2018. If it can be done in the first half of 2018, that is fine with me, but I do not want to make that commitment without knowing that is possible, because I do not want to make a commitment that I might not be able to honour.

On the promised referendums, there are many potentially in train. There is also one on divorce, with Deputy Josepha Madigan having a Bill to liberalise our divorce laws. There are potential referendums on blasphemy, on the patent court, which is slightly in abeyance now because we do not know what the UK is going to do but that does not mean we should not go ahead with it, extending the vote on the Presidency to citizens abroad, women in the home, the eighth amendment and the Office of the Ceann Comhairle. There is much in train. I do not yet know myself which should come first and which should not, but my sense is that the greatest public demand and potential impact on people's lives is from the eighth amendment and the votes for the Presidency for citizens overseas, though for that one, even if we have the referendum in 2018, is not going to be in place for the presidential election, for all sorts of reasons. It would apply to the presidential election after that.

What I would be interested in knowing from the House today and perhaps sitting down with the main party leaders in the weeks ahead is to hear their views and perhaps agree some sort of schedule of referendums. I am not totally averse to the idea of several on one day. I see the upsides and downsides. We have opportunities and potentially a referendum day of some sort in the first half of next year.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about CETA?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The presidential election which may or may not happen, depending on whether there is an election, is in November 2018, and the European and local elections are the year after. People are going to the polls anyway in November 2018 and again June 2019, so there are potential dates.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Very dangerous.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am very interested in hearing people's views on it. There is no proposal to have a referendum on CETA.