Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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46. To ask the Minister for Health his plans regarding the ownership of the new National Maternity Hospital; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27956/17]

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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It was mid-April when the controversy about the proposed new governance and ownership arrangements for the National Maternity Hospital broke, arising from the disclosure of the Mulvey report. There was widespread public controversy for a number of weeks and, at the end of April, the Minister asked for a month to consider this matter. That month came and went. While I appreciate that the Minister has been busy with other things, we are now three weeks over the deadline. I would like to know what developments have taken place.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her question and her ongoing interest in this very important matter. I would strongly refute the suggestion that the month came and went. As the Deputy will be aware, during that month there was significant engagement between myself, the chairs of the National Maternity Hospital and St. Vincent's, and the CEOs and masters of both hospitals, as well as extensive engagement between the St Vincent's Healthcare Group and my officials.

On 29 May, the Sisters of Charity announced their decision to relinquish their ownership of and involvement with the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group. This decision is an extremely significant development for the health care sector and for the National Maternity Hospital project. It addresses not all but a number of the concerns that were articulated by many. My Department has been briefed on this development. The St. Vincent's Healthcare Group's constitution will no longer refer to the Sisters of Charity and will be amended to reflect compliance with national and international best practice guidelines on medical ethics and the laws of the Republic of Ireland. I know that despite the specific provisions in the Mulvey agreement, there was a concern on the part of some about the potential religious influence being brought to bear on the new maternity hospital, and the potential role of religious interests on its board. The decision of the Sisters of Charity is extremely helpful in dispelling any such concerns.

We need to resolve the issue of ownership. I have made my views clear on this. Discussions are continuing with the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group on the terms of the State's investment in the new hospital and, in particular, arrangements for the protection of this investment. The Mulvey agreement envisaged that further consideration was required of the legal mechanisms necessary to protect the State's considerable investment. My Department is actively engaged in devising suitable arrangements to ensure that these facilities are legally secured on an ongoing basis for the delivery of publicly funded maternity, gynaecology and neonatal services. I expect to be in a position to report significant progress on this shortly and will update the Government and the Oireachtas at that stage. I will also be bringing proposals to Government in the coming weeks for a broader discussion of ownership within the health service and the role of the religious and voluntary hospitals, as has already taken place in the education sector through the forum on pluralism and patronage.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister. He will be well aware, I am sure, of ongoing concerns on the part of the HSE and his own Department in respect of the very unorthodox corporate structure in St. Vincent's Healthcare Group, whereby it is not possible to identify where public money is actually going, or the extent to which there is intertwining of public and private in respect of consultants' use of facilities and spending of public money. Tony O'Brien referred to the private hospital as having a parasitic relationship with the public hospital.

This is a very real issue. The audit done by the HSE is still under consideration. Recently, the HSE announced that it was commencing the second part of that audit, covering the breach of contract arrangements by consultants. In the context of that issue alone, does the Minister accept that it would not be appropriate to add a further public hospital to a very unorthodox, mixed group? Does he agree that it would not be a good idea?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for her comments. The structure proposed in respect of the new National Maternity Hospital is envisaged as standing apart from the current St. Vincent's Healthcare Group. It retains the mastership structure. We have had a lot of public discourse and debate about this.

Although I always like to be forthcoming with information, I must be conscious of what I say as we are in the middle of ongoing discussions and negotiations between my Department, the Chief State Solicitor's office and the St. Vincent's Healthcare Group. This is a potential investment of €300 million by the taxpayer. I am absolutely clear in my view that the issue of ownership is of paramount importance. Absolute protection for the State's investment can be achieved in a number of ways.

The Deputy may have articulated a number of ways in which this can happen. A number of ways are being explored and I expect to be able to revert to the matter very shortly when I hope to be able to announce significant progress in that regard.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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It was very clear that public concern was centred on two aspects, the first of which was ethos, while the second was ownership. Perhaps the issue of ethos has been addressed, but we do not know because we do not know the further details of the new entity proposed. On the issue of ownership, people were outraged that a publicly owned facility, valued at €300 million, could be handed over to private interests. This was rejected outright by the public and that message came across very clearly. On the use of public hospitals by public patients, does the Minister accept the principle that such a hospital must be retained in public ownership?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is a broader question than that. I am not sure what the Deputy's view was or what the views of many Members of the House were when the State invested €266 million in the Mater hospital to provide new state-of-the-art facilities, a hospital that is not in the ownership of the State. There are approximately 17 hospitals in the State that are either voluntary or joint board hospitals. There is also the National Rehabilitation Hospital. There are a number of hospitals that have not been owned by the State and at which Governments of various political colours sanctioned projects. As I have described it previously, we have a rich tapestry when it comes to ownership. There are a number of religious and non-religious voluntary hospitals. The reason I want to have a broader discussion is that we need to identify the impact of the Deputy's statement, namely, that the State can only invest in what it owns. That may be desirable but it would not be without consequence. It would be quite significant and have an impact on the overall health budget. On the building of a new national maternity hospital, the position is somewhat different. I take the issue of ownership as being very important in that regard and have heard many people speak very clearly on the issue. The views of members of the public are quite clear. I hope to be able to report progress on it shortly.