Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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27. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills if his attention has been drawn to the treatment of pharmacy students in Trinity College, Dublin, UCD and the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, whose degree has been changed in order that they now have to pay masters degree level fees for their final year tuition and are having to undergo an unpaid placement rather than a paid placement in their final year; if he was consulted regarding this change; his views on whether it should be permissible; and his further views on engaging with the presidents of these institutions to reverse these unfair changes. [25042/17]

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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This is a question that has arisen in regard to pharmacy students and it is also an issue of concern for the wider system. Degrees have been changed so that the student is not just doing a primary degree to qualify as a pharmacist but, effectively, has to do the final year as a master's degree. While it is laudable that people are as highly qualified as possible, what was previously done as part of a primary degree is now being done as part of a masters degree and there are fees associated with that. The worry is that this is a way of generating extra income for the universities because of the severe crisis in third level funding.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue, which is a perfectly valid one. The education and training of pharmacists to first registration is specified in EU legislation, at Article 44 of Directive 2005/36/EC, and consists of a five-year education and training programme which must include a minimum of six months' practical training under the supervision of a pharmacist. In Ireland, the Pharmacy Act 2007 conferred responsibility on the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, the pharmacy regulator, with respect to pharmacy education and training. The Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland is an independent statutory body and is responsible for defining and ensuring the standards of education and training for pharmacists qualifying in Ireland. This includes developing standards and policies and carrying out accreditation of pharmacy degree programmes.

The changes in the degree programme structure arise from the recommendations of the pharmacy education and accreditation reviews project, and implementation has been overseen by the National Forum for Pharmacy Education and Accreditation, which includes representatives of the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, the Department of Health, the Higher Education Authority, community, hospital and industry pharmacists, and patient, student and international expertise.

The Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland rules were signed by the Minister for Health in 2014. These rules underpin the implementation of the new five-year fully integrated masters degree programme in pharmacy, which evolved from significant review of the previous training pathway and international best practice assessment in this area. They also gave effect to new accreditation standards that were developed by the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland and place the core competency framework for pharmacists on a statutory footing. In that context, it would not be appropriate for me to intervene in the changes to the pharmacy programmes.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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Far be it for me to intervene in any way with pharmacy programmes, but the fact is a pharmacy degree was always five years, or it was when I was at college, and those who were studying it had to stay on longer than other students. The worry is that this and other examples are being used as a back door way of getting more money into the system. It is a severe worry because there is a severe shortage of money in the sector, although there are others who beg to differ and we look forward to watching RTE's "Prime Time Investigates" tomorrow night.

This is certainly a way to get more money into the system and that is one objective. However, is it acceptable to do that? The five-year requirement in the European directive was already being complied with. It is not as if there is an extra year. It was always five years, or it certainly was at Trinity College. Now, however, part of that is a masters year. Is it an unsanctioned fee increase through the back door? That is the question pharmacy students are asking us. It is simply adding to the cost and the debt burden they have and, most worryingly, it may be putting people off going into pharmacy who are from backgrounds where they are turned off by the cost. That is wrong and our education system should not be about that.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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As the original reply explained, this was put together by a group which looked at international best practice and decided that the new programme structure should be different. It has set out dispersed shadow placement in year two and a practice-based approach in years three, four and five, rather than a focus on the final year. These are designed to be workplace-based learning experiences overseen by education providers through the mechanism of shared service facilities, the affiliation of pharmacy practice and experiential learning. This is based on an assessment of what is best practice in training and developing qualified pharmacists by those who are best placed to deal with the issue.

When the Deputy raised the question, I was surprised that, because of the limit of four years for free fees for the undergraduate piece, this five-year programme automatically resulted in a masters year. However, it was not put together as an income earning mechanism but was put together in good faith by those who were regulating the sector. I will ask my officials to look at the model whereby this particular type of qualification requires someone in their final year to pay fees. It would obviously raise wider issues in terms of student support and so on. I will ask my officials to examine it in view of the concern the Deputy has raised.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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There should be a wide-scale review of professional qualifications. I know there are a small minority of teaching qualifications where one can qualify as part of the primary degree, and the student both studies the subject and does the teacher training at the same time. Most students traditionally did a higher diploma in education, although a masters degree is now required. While it is great that our young professionals are very highly educated, the truth is that this is adding massively to the cost of their education at a time when their wages are likely to be lower than the wages their predecessors could earn when they graduated. It is something we need to be conscious of because we are putting many burdens on the young people of this country and certain sectors are perhaps not willing to share the burden. We need to be careful. This is part of a wider debate on fees, student loans and so on, and we need to watch what burdens we are putting on young people. In my view, we are adding a heavy burden and it is certainly worth looking at again.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I take the Deputy's point. However, we feel we need to have professional regulatory bodies looking at the standards that we all reach - the Teaching Council in the case of education and, obviously, this pharmaceutical body in the case of pharmacists. When we get a recommendation from people in whose competence we place faith, we have to take that seriously. I understand that there is this unintended consequence for people participating, but that is something we need to consider rather than saying that we try to dilute what is thought to be best practice in these areas. We need to ensure that we are up to world practice.