Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone. I appeal for the co-operation of Deputies. As we have three contributors to the debate, they have approximately 80 seconds each initially. Deputy Burton, you are first.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The reaction of the Government yesterday to the publication of the second interim report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes came as a slap in the face to many of the people affected by the issues being examined. The ruling out of redress was stupid and foolish on the part of the Government in respect of a report that made no findings of fact.

I wish to highlight the remarks of the unnamed Minister referenced on the front page of The Irish Timestoday. The Minister in question said that if the Government were to accept the redress recommendations from the commission, then the sky would be the limit for potential future liabilities. I do not think the Minister in question can have read the report because there are no findings of fact in it. Whoever that Minister is, he or she should out him or herself. It is absolutely disgraceful.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The other coverage on the matter is all about fear, including the fear of the people who were in mother and baby homes, fear of the mothers and fear of the children. This runs absolutely counter to how to deal with people with sensitivity and care and consideration. I exempt the Minister present from my comments but the stuff in the newspapers from her Government is an absolute disgrace.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy. You have to give your colleagues a fair crack of the whip.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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I welcome that the interim report is recommending further investigation into addressing the inclusion of those who have been excluded. I welcome that redress has been mentioned. This is obviously the reason we have had to wait seven months for it to be published.

I am concerned by the response of the Minister to the report and her claims that the focus of the report is on children who were unaccompanied by their mothers into the mother and baby homes and county homes. I do not believe that is the case. The report raises far more significant points. The Government's announcement of its unwillingness to examine the issue of redress is an appalling slur on the victims. Again, in the seven months the Government has waited to publish the report, probably many of these people have already died.

Redress was never at the heart of this issue. Over and over again, we never asked about redress. It was always about stolen identity, stolen lives and broken families. No amount of money can compensate for these things. The people concerned want an acknowledgement of what was done to them with the knowledge of the State. The report clearly states that the facts relating to financing gave the State the ultimate regulatory power, that is, the power to close the institutions. The State is responsible and we have to deal with it.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I hesitate to say it but the Minister has added to the abuse of the survivors and what they have suffered. There was no reason for the delay in the report. The Minister has given no proper reason for its delay. It should have been published last September.

Last Friday, the Minister attended a meeting at which she was not asked about redress. She was asked to give a report on the work of the commission and why there was a delay. Pressure was put on the Minister to publish a report and to give maximum information. We asked the Minister whether she knew about briefing documents at the highest level. We asked factual questions relating to the site in Tuam being a crime scene.

The Minister has come back and talked about waffly consultation. We do not know where it will start or who the stakeholders are. The Minister is not giving us a date for the scoping exercise to extend the terms of reference. The Minister has put in transitional justice that no one has sought. The Minister is talking about Caranua version two when Caranua itself is in serious trouble. Reference has been made to the most appalling distinction between accompanied mother and unaccompanied mothers. Shame on this Government.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this matter and providing me with an opportunity to discuss the publication of the second interim report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes.

The commission was set up to inquire into the conditions in mother and baby homes and county homes in the period between 1922 and 1998. Following a short first interim report last July, the commission submitted a second interim report in September 2016. This report deals with a number of issues that had come to its attention during its work and analysis based on information collected up to August 2016.

Yesterday, I published the second interim report of the commission. It is now available on my Department's website. I have been mindful of the time it has taken to publish this report. It has, however, been necessary for me to engage with Cabinet colleagues on issues in the report that extend beyond my remit as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

The focus in this report is on children who were unaccompanied by their mothers in mother and baby homes and county homes. In its interim report published yesterday, the commission suggests that the exclusion of children who were resident in mother and baby homes and in county homes without their mothers from the residential institutions redress scheme, which was established in 2002, should be re-examined. The report states that the commission is satisfied that the institutions it is investigating are unquestionably the main such homes that existed during the 20th century. It does not currently recommend that other institutions be investigated. The commission is not recommending any changes to its terms of reference at this time. It may recommend further investigations when its current investigation is completed. It has not made findings to date that abuse occurred in these institutions but notes that its work is not yet complete.

The commission also recognises that people whose births were falsely registered have a need to establish their identities but that the false registration of births is a very difficult issue to investigate because of a lack of accurate records.

The Government has carefully examined the commission’s recommendation regarding redress, and has concluded that it is not possible to implement it. As Deputies will be aware, the residential institutions redress scheme has been closed since 2010. Following the publication of the Ryan report in May 2009, there was a range of requests and calls for the redress scheme to be extended. The then Government took a decision in 2010 not to extend the scheme. The Government in 2013 also decided not to extend the scheme. The then Minister for Education, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, said he found no basis to revisit the decision.

This Government is conscious that the commission has made no findings to date regarding abuse or neglect and believes it would not be appropriate to deal with the question of redress in advance of any conclusions on this issue by the commission. The challenges for Government in considering the recommendations of the commission at this interim stage of its work are clear from the findings of this report.

It is important to remember that the commission’s investigations are ongoing. The Commission’s final report is due in February next year. Its conclusions on this and all matters regarding the treatment of former residents will be studied very carefully at that point. My focus now is on assisting those who were unaccompanied as children in mother and baby homes and county homes, with a view to offering supports that will be of genuine and practical value to them. With this in mind, I will consult with them regarding the nature and type of services and supports in the area of health and well-being that they consider would be helpful to them at this stage. I will conclude this consultation by the end of June, and bring proposals to Government before the summer break, so that we can have appropriate supports in place as quickly as possible.

My Department is working with Tusla to support the provision of information to assist former residents who may wish to establish when they resided in a mother and baby home. I have asked Dr. James Gallen of the school of law and government, Dublin City University, to assist by mapping out a model of transitional justice. This would be a means of giving a voice to former residents of mother and baby homes and county homes. Dr. Gallen’s expertise in transitional justice will help to develop an approach.

I am also carrying out a scoping exercise to examine the possibility of broadening the commission’s terms of reference. This report is very helpful in focusing us on what may possibly emerge in the final report from the commission of investigation.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister must have had a very bad day at Cabinet yesterday because of the briefing around the story and the unnamed coward of a Minister who would not actually put his or her name to what he or she said on the front page of a national newspaper. If that person feels that strongly about this and is a member of the Government, he or she should come out and identify him or herself.

With regard to the mother and baby home redress fears, I think the Minister's intentions are very good. Yesterday, she did a tremendous amount of damage to people who have been in such situations and who are above all else entitled to be treated as free and equal citizens of this Republic, not as victims or survivors, but as people who get free and equal treatment in this Republic. The Minister should have been able to tell us that, even though the decision may not have been made yet and we know there are no findings of fact here, the commission should have been widened to all institutions and should also include the situation of birth mothers where their consent was not properly forthcoming. We know of many of those cases. It should also include the falsification of records and American adoptions. If the Minister is intent on looking at scoping exercises, can we see scoping exercises that are of meaning and value to people affected by this?

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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What the survivors have always wanted is acknowledgement, apology and inclusion. The interim report goes some way to saying it warrants further investigation into including those who have been excluded. The decision on which institutions to include and exclude was very inconsistent. That needs to be addressed. There is an urgent need for the Minister to meet with representatives of the survivor groups. They are not happy with the Minister's response and the response of Government. There are things they have consistently asked for that are not being addressed. I know that people like Paul Redmond and others from the Coalition of Mother and Baby Home Survivors are really keen to have this urgently addressed. The Minister would get the response right if she engaged with them. Time is running out. I urge that this be done as an immediate matter.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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When the Minister delayed the report until yesterday, she failed to go back to the commission and ask them to update the report. Events overtook that report and what was discovered in Tuam shocked the Government. The Minister failed to go back to outline the significance of what has happened and to say where we are going with this. The Minister has left it up to a local busy GP who happens to be the coroner to look after the Tuam site. What was the last figure for the number of babies discovered with six mothers on the Tuam site? Can she recall? She is leaving that to a local busy GP. She is going all over the place with consultation, scoping, transitional justice and Caranua. The survivor groups that have spoken to me do not want any of that. They want her to report back on what happened in Tuam over the past six to nine months. Where is that at? How is that influencing the commission? What terms need to be changed? What access to records is there?

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Mr. Peter Mulryan, who has given me permission to use his name, is in the High Court trying to get access to his records. It is time for the Minister to stop nodding.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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It is time to actually listen. I will finish now-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is way over time.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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I am, Chairman. I agree with that. Ms Anna Corrigan from the survivors organisation gave the Minister a list of very practical things last Friday. I ask the Minister to please respond to those.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I appreciate the additional comments of the Deputies. In response to Deputy Burton with regard to stories on the front page and what they say, I do not have any information on that. I know that oftentimes things-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister's Government agreed it. That briefing was agreed by her Government.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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-----are reported that may or may not have happened. I accept and hear what the Deputy is saying, but I just do not have any comment on that. I wish to say very clearly that in terms of the Government's response, it does not mean we have closed off redress for those who have been in mother and baby homes. When the commission finishes its investigations, social history and confidential committee of hearing evidence and makes recommendation to Government, it is then we will have the opportunity to consider redress for those people in those institutions, irrespective of whether that is a part of the recommendations. It is at that stage the commission will have the opportunity to identify whether there are any findings of abuse in the formal process that has been put in place.

I hear what Deputy Daly is saying about the extension of the terms of reference. I committed to looking at that and I am doing so. Deputy Daly talked about listening to survivors, or residents. Some of the people with whom I have spoken to prefer to call themselves residents as distinct from survivors. The Deputy said that what they want is an apology. I spoke with a survivor or resident yesterday who does not want an apology. Instead, what she wants is the Head of State to ask for their forgiveness. She sees that as different from an apology. Therefore, I understand that there are lots of different issues that people are seeking to be addressed. Part of the reason for establishing an approach to take a look at the wider ways of listening to what people want, which is part of what is transitional justice, is because of that diversity and the importance of trying to identify it.

In response to Deputy Connolly, I listened very carefully in terms of the meetings on Tuam that were requested. I have received many submissions and have already written letters that are being sent back on how we will progress the different issues that arose. As the Deputy knows, one of the aspects specifically has to do with access to information. That is something about which I spoke in my response to the interim report.