Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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41. To ask the Minister for Social Protection his plans to announce an increase in his Department's contribution to Bus Éireann to cover the real cost of free travel; and if he will make this announcement before the conclusion of talks between Bus Éireann management and unions at the WRC. [17854/17]

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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49. To ask the Minister for Social Protection the methodology arrived at for calculating the contribution his Department makes to Bus Éireann and to private coach firms for free travel; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17855/17]

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I am asking the Minister to report on the issue of increasing his Department's contribution to Bus Éireann for the free travel pass scheme. When precisely will the relevant changes be coming through? That question is quite pertinent at the moment.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 41 and 49 together.

The free travel scheme is a valuable support for older people, those with disabilities, carers and their companions. I am fully committed to its retention and I am keen to see more private bus operators participating in the free travel scheme, particularly across rural Ireland. My Department, the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport and the National Transport Authority are reviewing the overall funding mechanisms underpinning the scheme to ensure equity, consistency and transparency in approach to all participating travel operators. These discussions are going well and I expect matters to be brought to a conclusion in the near future. The Deputy will appreciate that I am not yet in a position to make any specific announcement on the future level of funding for the scheme.

My Department makes a block payment to the CIÉ group and the apportionment of payment between the three constituent companies, Bus Éireann, Bus Átha Cliath and Iarnród Éireann, is a matter for the group's board. This payment reflects a range of factors negotiated over the years, including fare increases, peak-time access to free travel and service improvements, changes and enhancements. A discount of 40% is applied to reflect the fares forgone nature of the scheme.

Payments to private travel operators participating in the scheme, new operators wishing to enter the scheme or existing operators seeking an increase in payment are determined by way of a survey of their passenger numbers. An average fee is agreed on foot of surveys undertaken over a six-month period and based on an operator's own fare charges. This is then discounted by 30% to reflect the fares forgone nature of the scheme. Discounts are the norm for bulk purchases and also reflect the savings that arise from not having to collect fares and issue tickets. Many journeys undertaken would not have taken place at all were it not for free travel.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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Putting Bus Éireann on a sound financial footing is, to a significant extent, within the Minister's gift and that of his Department. If the free travel pass was to be paid to Bus Éireann at a 100% rate, rather than at the rate the Minister has indicated, it would make a difference to the tune millions. I have seen some reports that indicate a sum of €17 million per annum. The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, tells us that this is in the pipeline. He says it will happen soon but he has been telling us that for weeks and months. We are at a critical stage with this company, so why is it taking so long? Is there a deliberate policy on the part of the Minister, Deputy Varadkar, and his Department to facilitate the crisis at Bus Éireann and push a privatisation agenda? Can the Minister please reply to that question?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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First of all, it is not within the gift of my Department. Any money we spend on free travel is taxpayers' money. It says a lot about the Deputy's political philosophy that he sees taxpayers' money as a gift that the Government can just give out to resolve problems in companies, pay off debts or solve other difficulties. If we are using taxpayers' money, we expect to get something, such as a service, in return. This is not unusual when one buys something in bulk. I do not know if the Deputy goes to the supermarket very often but if I am buying Coke Zero, I buy the twin-pack and get a discount on that. If I am buying toilet rolls, I buy the 24-roll pack and get a bloody good discount on that too. That is bulk buying operates - one gets a significant discount. When it comes to the TV licence, for example, there is a discount from RTE. I do not, therefore, see why there should not be a discount. That is the basic principle that is applied.

As regards how this impacts on Bus Éireann, the Deputy should bear in mind that it is not just about Bus Éireann or CIE. These payments are also made to Luas. A sum of €8.5 million is paid to private operators, €1.5 million to Pobal for rural transport and €1.8 million is paid in respect of cross-Border travel. Any decision we make on free travel, therefore, will not be about CIE or any one part of that company because we are paying for a service and we need to have equity across the transport sector.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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On 1 April, the mask slipped a little when the Minister said in an interview that the Government may allow Bus Éireann to fold. He did say that this would not be his preferred option but he then highlighted what he described as the reality of the fact that there are more and more private transport firms in the field, which clearly indicates that this is an alternative he would consider. The Minister has just expressed his concern for the taxpayer. It would cost the taxpayer a king's ransom if the Government were to allow Bus Éireann to go to the wall. Some €59 million in payroll taxes would be forgone. The Minister could buy a lot of Diet Coke with that. There would also be hundreds of millions in redundancy and social welfare payments.

Leaving the word "gift" out of it, the Minister's Department clearly has the option of increasing payments made for the free travel pass to semi-State companies. We have been hearing for months that this is in the pipeline.

The crisis continues and yet the money continues to be withheld. Why? What is the story there? What is the agenda?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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First of all, we only have a certain amount of money allocated in the budget for free travel this year, which is in the region of €77 million to €80 million. That is the envelope in which I can operate. I do not have the authority to spend a whole load of extra money beyond that envelope in one year because of the way the Estimates work. It is not the case that I can just decide to pay additional funds to public transport companies. The same would have to apply, and the same treatment would have to be given, to private operators such as the private bus companies and the Luas for example. Any increase would also have to apply to the bus operators who have continued to operate for the past 18 days, to the Luas and to others. For obvious reasons I could not single out one part of one public company and give it an increase without giving it to everyone else as well.

I am keen to come to a situation, if we can, whereby we are able to increase funding for free travel not just for commercial bus operators operating in the public sector, but also for those in the private sector. That would provide additional revenue for Expressway but it would also provide additional revenue for private operators. It might, perhaps, bring some more of them into the scheme, because some are not currently. That would serve the very important public policy objective of giving people who have the free travel pass more options. That would be of benefit to the taxpayer.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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The mask is slipping even further.